she must find a way to like kissing me, and then be able to PROVE to men that she likes it
Why? Why must she do this? What do YOU do to motivate her to even want to try to do this?
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Yes, my wife IS more important than anything else in my life except God.
It doesn't appear to me that she is CeMar, it appears to me that YOU are more important....that's the impression I get from your posts because she has to do all these things for YOU. I see in no way from your posts how you put her before yourself...as you expect her to put you before herself or your children. I honestly don't.
I think the rub for CeMar is not that his wife does things FOR him because he is her husband. She obviously does this. I think what CeMar wants is a passionate kiss from his wife because she is the one who wants a passionate kiss from him. Kind of in the same way a woman wants the male throw down sex. Which, btw, I think you get.
CeMar's misunderstanding here is being blocked by his hurt and his long held resentment. It is what is referred to as poverty consciousness... he does not see that he has to give in order to get... it's really hard to do when you are that hurt and pissed.
I think I remember reading once that CeMar said his wife said... "I'm beyond all that now..." or something to that effect. SHE believes she is no longer a passionate woman.
I remember feeling that way, too. I had no idea where my sexual desire went... I didn't FEEL it. It wasn't THERE. And no matter how hard I tried... I couldn't figure out a way to get it BACK. So... I stopped trying and poo-pooed my H's efforts.
He went the same direction CeMar is... he got more hurt and more pissed and withdrew even further... and all that did was fuel his feelings of entitlement... and all that did was make things worse.
CeMar: I guess that is why everyone is telling you you have to lose the anger, and allow your wife to see your hurt and vulnerability. I'm sure you've been reading Choc's thread... and he was probably one of the only posters on here who really seemed to understand your POV.
If you are not willing to talk to your W about this directly... would you be willing to send her an email? The girls here would be willing, I'm sure, to help you write it, or at least give you feedback.
CeMar's misunderstanding here is being blocked by his hurt and his long held resentment.
For me it goes back to the comment he made quite some time ago about his wife being unloveable the way she is now. He views her as unloveable as is, but then also expects that a woman he views as unloveable should WANT to give him passionate kisses...it ain't gonna happen as long as he views her that way, there's no motivation there for her to WANT to find that desire again kwim? Whether or not he's ever said that to her face, we all know that you can feel that vibe from someone when they resent you for something...as he does his wife. That alone is enough to keep someone at arms length.
CeMar: I guess that is why everyone is telling you you have to lose the anger, and allow your wife to see your hurt and vulnerability. I'm sure you've been reading Choc's thread... and he was probably one of the only posters on here who really seemed to understand your POV.
If you are not willing to talk to your W about this directly... would you be willing to send her an email? The girls here would be willing, I'm sure, to help you write it, or at least give you feedback.
Corri
CeMar,
As much as one part of me keeps screaming "You FOOL! Why did you send that e-mail???!", that's really only because I'm hurting. Continuing in my resentful state, with my marriage slipping further and further away was no way to go thru life.
No one else could tell me when that time was right. Everyone on here TRIED -- some encouraging, some cracking me over the cranium with 2-by-6s, and some in-between. And intellectually, I had known they were right all along.
But I had to get it from my head, down into my heart.
It had to be on my time, just as you will have to decide when to act on your time. But they say the definition of stupidity is "doing the same things over and over again, and expecting a different result." You seem like a very intelligent guy, and I think you already know that NOTHING is going to change significantly in your marriage until YOU decide to do something radically different.
I can't tell you when to jump off the stage and into the crowd, my hurting friend. But I can tell you, with all certainly, that there are some really wonderful, caring people here ready to help you when you do. You won't even think you deserve it, but they'll be there for you.
He went the same direction CeMar is... he got more hurt and more pissed and withdrew even further... and all that did was fuel his feelings of entitlement... and all that did was make things worse.
I feel just like that. I am going the wrong way with this. I can make things worse. But the rub here is that this also seems to imply that I can not make things better. It implys that things will not get better until the woman changes herself without the help of the man.
So Corri, what could your husband have done differently that would have caused massive change in you?
I will let Corri answer directly, but your wife is not going to have a "massive" change. I'm having to come to grips with this myself. She is either going to not change at all, because of all of the damage that's already been done, or she will change incrementally. And yes, if done over time, the incremental changes can ADD UP to "massive" change, but as NOP likes to tell me, "there's no magic here, only hard work."
Not the answer you want to hear, I realize, but I think it's a realistic one. Hopefully, like me, some small signs of effort and progress might encourage you though, since it has gotten SO cold.
So Corri, what could your husband have done differently that would have caused massive change in you?
but I'm going to say the same thing Choc just did to you....you are not going to get a massive change. Change happens slowly, especially the type you are looking for. It's not a switch you turn on/off. However, there will be no changes in your marriage without confrontation, it seems to me you've been avoiding the confrontation....you must tell her how you feel, deep down, inside....the hurt and everything.
Well. We all know I have a wee bit of stubborness to me (ahem), and even though I was seeing a very good shrink, my 'desire' was still not returning.
I guess for me... I can look back and say with all honesty... that I never really 'knew' my H intimately. He never trusted me with his vulnerable self. I understand why, but I never got that from him. The reason why I even came here, why I even went the whole 'just do it' path was because I found Michele's book, and I asked my H, "is this how you feel?" He said 'yes, I've been trying to tell you that for years.' I suppose he did try to tell me, but it was couched in such contempt, anger and resentment, I could not see the hurt and vulnerability beneath it.... the two things that would have motivated me to move an entire mountain range for him.
He wanted all that from me, but he wasn't willing to give it himself... and then, even when I managed to figure things out on my own and said, 'screw it, I'm going to do it anyway...' his criticisms kept up. It kept him safe. And it kept me out.
That's not to say I have to have 24/7 of heart-to-heart talks, and have him behave and act like a woman. I have girlfriends for that. I needed his trust, and I needed to know that he could, every now and then, trust me with his inner self, especially in the bedroom.
I needed his amusement, not his annoyance. I needed optimism, not pessimism. I needed a husband, not another child that I was constantly having to care for.
That isn't who he is. If it tells you anything, his mother lives with him now.
I needed his amusement, not his annoyance. I needed optimism, not pessimism. I needed a husband, not another child that I was constantly having to care for.
Corri,
I know you meant that for CeMar, but I really took note of it. I suspect that my wife is thinking a lot of these same things. While showing my emotions does let her know that I still care, she needs me to lead, and not just be another needy thing grabbing at her sleeve all day.
