Thanks for your thoughts SuperDad. It is tough living with them in this state, yet I'm grateful everyday even when it's tough. I read through some of the threads here and some folks only get a chance to connect for a few minutes once a week and some less than that.
W is home from church and asleep. Everything is so peaceful right now.
Had a heck of a rough time with my S14 tonight. He really broke around 7:30 or so tonight. We got into a bit of a teenager versus Dad thing, I wanted him to eat something, he really is wild at heart, he goes and goes then 9PM rolls around and he is starving. I told him to come in and eat, he bucked, still came in and ate a sandwich but then wanted to run back out and work on some BMX tricks with his friends on their ramps. He's eating standing up and I lost my cool. I told him to sit down, slow down and eat. He bucked and I snapped. I was wrong. He got very upset, more than normal.
I asked him to talk to me, I wanted to make sure everything is okay before letting him go out and run wild for a couple of hours. He sat down and just broke. I felt like someone reached into my chest, grabbed my heart, twisted and crushed. It would have been easier if they would have just yanked my heart out, then the pain would have stopped. It was intense.
Basically, he said we, W and I, fight all the time and though W has told him that we are both trying as hard as we can, and I have told him I'm trying as hard as I can, he doesn't see things getting better. He is afraid that I am going to leave or we are going to get a D. One of his friends just went through the experience of his parents divorcing. S14 doesn't want to deal with "that stuff". I asked him about that, what stuff? He said, things like, who to live with, where do you want to spend Christmas, seperate birthday parties...., it was pretty enlightening as to how much these kids have thought about this stuff and the stress it creates for them. S14 said his friend just wants to go live with a friend so then he wouldn't feel like he is betraying his dad by living with his mom.
WTF.
This upset me so much. I was able to keep it under control. S14 asked me, "please promise you are really trying as hard as you can".
I don't or can't know exactly what emotion or thoughts I was feeling and wrestling with at that moment. I was so enraged that my son is dealing with this. Not a few moments before he was talking about some 'fakie' trick he and his friends are working on but just can't seem to get enough speed going up the ramp..., and now here we are, him broken, dealing with very adult thoughts and feelings that he shouldn't have to deal with. I wanted so bad to tell him, listen big man, I will never leave but your mother wants me to leave or she will leave, so it's out of my hands. I wanted to much to put it out there, that yes, I screwed up, yet I'm working my butt off to repair the damage. Because her C told her that she has to start to "major in W", and put herself first so she can be better and that will be better for the kids, therefore the only possible solution to any of this is for us to D. I wanted to scream, I've said a thousand times that I don't want this, and she has said ten thousand times to anyone that will listen that she does.
I know how wrong that is.
I hugged him and told him that I was committed to working my butt off, to trying as hard as I could try. That I would do everything in me to make sure we stay together as a family. And as much as it sucks, I told him that his mother is working just as hard and just as committed. I actually said it pretty smoothly despite my internal struggle at that moment.
He seemed to settle some and after a few moments to get himself together he went out and played hard until 9 or so. Came home and it was as if nothing had happened. Cool.
W got home around 11PM. Seemed in a decent enough mood. She had called earlier to say she was dropping something off at her friends house then would be right home. She made a few comments about how she wasn't going to go in, or hang out, just drop off her friends kids, (they went to kids church, their mom doesn't go to church any longer), and then she was leaving. This has been a sticking point before. On days when I wouldn't see W all day, and then she would go other places or whatever after practices or services I would get a little miffed. I wanted her to come home or even meet me somewhere and lets catch up. Now I've just accepted that she doesn't want to spend time with me, so trying to make it happen is counter-productive. So after the third time of her saying how she wasn't going to stay there, just drop off and get home.., I wanted to do a 180 and say, don't worry about it, do what you want to do. But I couldn't. I know I should have but I just started to get pissed about this whole situation and the conversation earlier with S14. I wanted to say something so bad, I didn't. I was able to say to myself, closer or farther?
Saying something would only push me farther away, which would only hurt him more at this point. I doubt it would even faze her. I couldn't do it.
Put on my best salesman of the year voice and I said, okay, see you when you get here and hung up.
Today has been a struggle for sure. W is telling all of our mutual friends about how much she wants a D and why. Basically that I was insanely jealous, stalked her and all that.
Okay. I accept that. I did do a lot of wrong things. Usually I don't defend myself about that stuff. Today though, after I found out she told our friends in Michigan during her recent trip there and according to her they think I'm "psycho" and she's "not safe here alone". I want to talk to all of them and ask them a few things. How about this for starters, you're married a few years and suddenly one day your spouse stops touching you. You go weeks without physical contact. No kissing, no hugs, they pull away when you take their hand, they won't look at you. You know something is up but they won't talk. You can tell they have been crying but still they won't let you in. When you do have sex, no kissing, no anything, just the mechanics and get it over with asap.
Yes dear friends, try that on for about 4 years or so and let me know how it fits. Tell me that you wouldn't start to wonder, if you wouldn't start to look, snoop and pry. To see if there is someone else, because on the surface, this has all the indications that there is someone else involved. Then your spouse tells you, I was sexually abused, you hear some of what happened, whatever they can share with you. Now you feel the full weight of what your spouse was dealing with and the realize the damage you have done.
So there you have it. That is what I'm struggling with today. Yes I engaged in some really bad behavior. No doubt about it. I've stopped though and I'm working hard on recovering ME. The me the was lost during that time of uncertainty. Yet, she still gets to paint me as the psycho stalker to all of our mutual friends who formerly knew me as something quite the opposite.
In DR Michele talks about the need to be strong. Today was a steroid strength day. Even now, I'm venting here because I want to walk up to our room where she is peacefully sleeping and unload all of this shite on her. How dare you sleep as if nothing is going on while our S14 breaks. How dare you tell our friends, who have no business knowing our business, that I'm some sort of stalker psycho without at least giving them the full story.
Oh well. Tomorrow is another day. I'll get up in a few hours, go for a run, call Chuck, go to work, pump iron during my lunch break, come home and play with my kiddies and keep on keeping on. God willing of course. Her issues are just that, HERS.
Never, ever lie to your son again! If your wife wants the divorce he's big enough to take the news. Help him to cope instead. It's her choice, the blame is all hers and she's going to have to own up to it. Tell him the complete truth, edit for someone of his age, and let him make his own adult choices.
Tell the wife that it's time she told her son the truth as well. He doesn't want this crap and you don't need to take the blame for it. You own 100% of your 50% of the relationship. She's the one that's making the choice. Let her face the anger, the disappointment, the fear, the chaos she is creating. It won't change her mind but you don't need to be the one to take the brunt when you are doing all you can. Make it clear when you both sit down with him who's choice it is. This is not a JOINT decision. She owns it and she gets to face it. It's her job to handle her relationship with her son. If her choices cause a rift, well, she's paying the price for her choice then, isn't she.
Again, don't lie to kids. They know. He knows. You lied to him and now you need to repair that as soon as possible before it festers.
While I hear what OTB is saying, I'm going to disagree. I DON'T think that explaining away that the D is your W's choice is the right thing for the kids. This has several negative effects in my mind.
First, your teenage son (especially) and your other kids will harbor huge resentment toward your W that may go on for YEARS - and it will be formative for them in their future relationships. Further and secondarily (if not first) will only create HUGE tension between you and your wife that will also go on for years.
Even though it was my W that asked me to move out when we separated, we agreed that we would describe it to the kids as a MUTUAL agreement - that we both needed time to figure some stuff out and MOST importantly they did NOTHING to get us to that point - that we were sorry for things being the way they were, but that we love them as much as before and always will. Kids will have a hard enough time processing their emotions WITHOUT the added distraction of "Who" to blame.
I mean, think of it, are you really be honest to the kids that this is your W's choice, but it was things that YOU did that got her to this point? If you're going to get it out there, you may as well get it ALL out there. BTW, they won't understand that anyway.
I think the most important thing is for you to be honest and commit to being a great man, that can process this and be there with dignity. Set the example for your children. That is what I did. Realise that just the other day, my oldest was telling me how much he liked it that although we were separated, he would wait by the window all Friday afternoon waiting for me to come by the house and pick him and his brothers up for our weekend together. It meant the world to him. See, here I was leading.
Look, I'm not saying your out of the game yet, but I think it is best NOT to force your kids (either intentionally or not) to pick a side.
A great book on communication with kids is "How to Talk so Your Kids Will Listen, and How to Listen so Your Kids Will Talk" by Estelle Faber. I highly recommend.
That is my .02.
Sven
Never sacrifice the great for the good. Sometimes the beauty of grace is that it makes life not fair.
Sven, I agree with what you're saying here. OTB's post reflects my internal struggle. I hate lying, but full disclosure wouldn't help either and not just because it puts me in a bad light.
After talking to DB Coach Chuck this morning I think that telling my son this is something W wants would be looked at as manipulative. Also, it would in someways make reconciliation harder because it would just be further proof of her core beliefs regarding me. As you mentioned in a previous post, essentially I have to let go of my part of the rope in this tug of war. As hard as it is, as much as it hurts, telling my son that this is something is mother wants, even if I told him that actions by me caused this reaction in her, still the only person really hurt by this would be him. I can't do that to him. He believes that we are both working as hard as possible. Maybe she is, maybe she isn't. I don't know what is going through her head. In fairness, I know I cycle between wanting to just walk away and resolve to build this into what it should be. Why should she be any different. Except, going by her words, the effort to give just isn't there for her.
I just e-mailed this to another member of the board here and I really think this is the honest cause of my current state of sitch. I can't honestly say I have ever truly DB'ed for more than 2 weeks straight.
Sad, painful but true.
This last "I think we should seperate, I have nothing left to give and I feel nothing for you and haven't in a long time" speech came on the heels of me backsliding. In her words, "you couldn't even make it 2 weeks, but you want me to believe you can give me the time and space to come around..., that's if I can even come around".
See, I did great for 2 weeks, (actually 2.5 but who's counting?), then backslid. Which only confirms one of her big core beliefs about me. That I can't change, that I can't give her the time and space she needs to get past this stuff.
So where does that leave me now? Still working at it.
I have to run some errands, will post more later. I have a lot of thoughts rolling through my noggin right now and need to journal some here.
And I can say been there done that. When I was invited to move back (about one month into our separation - I wasn't DB'g yet, but I was becoming the person I wanted to be), I too backslid - became needy and wussy. W saw this and broke off the moveback.
The good news was I just hunkered down that much more. There was a lot more work to do - but please know that all is not lost when you backslide - its just that you have to work that much harder at staying committed to the changes you are making. One important thing to note - be sure the changes really are for YOU. If they are not, it will be really hard to keep them sticking and you'll be selling out. However, if you liked what you were becoming over those two weeks, that is a huge plus.
Hang in there.
Sven
Never sacrifice the great for the good. Sometimes the beauty of grace is that it makes life not fair.
"Maybe she is, maybe she isn't". Ok. Then let HER say that she's working on it to him. I guess one way or the other she'll be found out. I have very little sympathy for mistruth. I understand the standpoint of not telling kids everything but what I was pointing out was that you don't have to do this alone. If this is a "we" thing part of that "we" is the wife and she has to step up to the plate 'cause that 14 year old batter just took a swing and knocked a foul over the back fence. If you don't think he could tell you were lying then you're fooling yourself. Kids can tell. Heck, most adults can. Since you want to foster truth rather than tell him who's walking away or working on it or whatever then tell him to speak to your wife, his mother, and I suggest you find him a therapist. He's going to be confused enough without having at least 1 parent he can fully trust. I know this sounds harsh, but the reality of the situation is he IS going to get hurt. It's no mercy to hang a man slowly.
One other thing. I'm really, really glad you spoke with a professional about this. I wish I could say I saw that more often here but it's good to see that you did. Most of us on the board are normal people in differing circumstances and there's a lot of interesting ideas and wisdom out there. Sometimes it's good to hear what advice you've been given to counterweight us armchair's.
Anyway, have a nice night! It's almost the weekend! What do you and the kids have planned?
And I can say been there done that. When I was invited to move back (about one month into our separation - I wasn't DB'g yet, but I was becoming the person I wanted to be), I too backslid - became needy and wussy. W saw this and broke off the moveback.
The good news was I just hunkered down that much more. There was a lot more work to do - but please know that all is not lost when you backslide - its just that you have to work that much harder at staying committed to the changes you are making. One important thing to note - be sure the changes really are for YOU. If they are not, it will be really hard to keep them sticking and you'll be selling out. However, if you liked what you were becoming over those two weeks, that is a huge plus.
Hang in there.
Sven
Sven, I talked to Chuck about this a little as well. I loved the direction I was going. I felt genuine, authentic again. This is the real me. After my last session with Chuck I started thinking about some of the things he mentioned, ie; what really puts a little pep in my step, who am I really?
So being the tad goofy optimist that I am, I called some folks that have known me my entire life specifically pre-W.
They all said the same things. That they could say anything to me regarding their hopes and dreams and I would be their biggest fan and supporter. Most of them said the same things, the best man in my wedding, who I haven't seen in 2 years as he lives in Florida now, (lucky bastid), told me that when he was around me that he really thought that if he said to me, "dude I think I can walk on moonbeams and I'm going to try tonight when its a full moon". He told me that of all the people he knows, I would be the only one to show up and cheer him on in his crazy venture. I thought about it. That really is me. I love seeing people chase their dreams. I think you can do it if you think you can do it. I believe you can so much, that I will do whatever I can do to help you get there from here.
That is the real ME. I was on track and feeling great.
The backsliding that precipitated the latest throwdown? I hate that part of me. If that's my inner child I want to find that little bastard and kick his ass. To paraphrase a Don Henley song. Enough already. It's just not me. How I got there? I don't even care. I just want to be gone from there. The real ME is so much more fun, such a better dad, friend and ultimately husband than the version that surfaced the last few years.
Like you posted Sven, all this recent backslide did was increase my resolve to never let that stuff have free rein in my mind again. To hunker down and work even harder. It literally hurts too much to let that stuff run me.
I shared with Chuck one tidbit that slipped through in the midst of the all night throwdown with W. There was a weird glitch with a txt message I sent to my son that caused her to believe that I'm snooping and spying on her again. Really bad timing for some glitch like that to occur. Nothing I can say to defend myself, I'm not doing anything but how do I prove that to her? I can't, except with time. During this exchange though, she said, "I'm shaking, I can't take another one of these, I can't, I will have a nervous breakdown if I find out that you are doing it again."
Okay, I know it sucks but..., it almost sounds like she is saying that she is trying. Even though she doesn't want to say that because it will give me hope. I probably made a mistake in not jumping on that, howbeit with caution. Basically let her know that I can't take doing that to her again for my sake either. That I'm committed to never going there again. I did tell her to change all her passwords, change them everyday so there is no way I will ever know, just do it so you can rest, you'll know there is no way. She said "it wouldn't matter, how would I know if you were having stuff forwarded, this is what you do, you know how to do all that stuff". I cut it off at that point, saying I have to get these bills done, I'm not doing anything, I did, I'm not denying what I did, but I'm not now. She stood there for moment and then walked off.
Talking to Chuck about it, I probably should have handled it better and if she goes there again I will.
OTB, I understand where you are coming from and believe me, for an instant I wanted to hang her out there. Let her answer to him. I know he is hurting. I just don't see how destroying his faith in his mom will help at this point. I did tell him that I'm doing my very best to make sure that I don't have to leave. Obviously don't have an optimal answer, kind of feeling my way through here. I do appreciate your perspective on this.
We have softball games all weekend, I'm taking them for a bike ride tomorrow night. Saturday getting my D5 up and riding on a her first legit bike sans training wheels is the prime directive.
