Divorcebusting.com Forums Open Forums THE SEX-STARVED MARRIAGE Whore/Madonna Syndrome

Heywyre,



Zactly! My H will even apologize to me now when we don't have sex, after he's pretty much promised me we would. He will talk big during the day...flirt with me, and sometimes I will get my expectatinos up...but more often than not he will not follow through (sometimes he does now, which is a HUGE improvement for him.) Now (to those of you reading) yes, I could initiate....but we are working on HIM doing this. If I go bail him out of the situation by initiating anyway...that doesn't solve the problem. At least NOW he's at a point where he acknowledges to me that he built up the situation, made a promise, and didn't follow through. He no longer tries to ignore it and doesn't try to sweep it under the rug....which is a HUGE improvement.

Progress is slow, but at least it's progress.

Heywyre, I don't know if your H does this or not but mine used to tickle me when I would try to start something sexual. Now, I ABSOLUTELY HATE to be tickled...it takes my desire and sends it right to the polar extreme. Not only do I not want to have sex with him when he tickles me at a time like that I want to get away from him. When we discussed this with our MC quite some time back she believed that it was his way of making me back down and take the pressure off of him sexually....and that by doing that I was the one ending the sexual contact so he wouldn't feel bad.

Anyway...he still does this every now and then (it's unintentional) but he's learning (after being elbowed in the ribs firmly a few times because he tends to tickle when he walks up behind me) how it is I do like to be touched...and he's altering his style conciously to fit me. Again...progress. There are times when he will start to tickle...and he'll see me stiffen up and he will immediately change his touch on me, so he recognizes what he's doing and makes the necessary change.

Can you think of any instances like that with your H?

GEL

YES!!! Absolutely he has done something like that. Actually, anytime I would try and initiate anything with him he would laugh or giggle. It infuriated me because here I am, trying to be sexual with my H and he's laughing? So, just like your C said, I would back off and then I would be the one ending the session. Needless to say, it doesn't exactly encourage you to keep trying either.

And its true what you say about it not being us that should initiate. It has to be them that makes the effort. The odd time (and I say VERY odd) time my H will cuddle up to me and I can feel him getting aroused but will he go any further - no!! If anything, he usually turns the other way so it won't go any further, using some lame excuse that his back hurts, or something.

Heywyre,

Believe me I understand! I love my H very much and am quite happy with the progress we've made...I know that at this point I'm secure in our marriage. I accept my H as he is, problems and all and we've come a Loooong way since I started on here. It's a long, frustrating process. My H is still working at things with us and I can see that, that is probably one of the reasons I can relax and be content now. I told him a long time ago (and have reinforced it verbally) that I will be more than happy to have sex anytime he approaches me for it, but unless I'm to the point I can't take it anymore...I'm no longer initiating it....when I do I blow his mind, but I'm done "begging" for sex from my own husband.

Now, some people might interperet that as I'm unhappy with the way things are...I'm not. Like I said, we have come a very long way. I know I CAN have sex if I choose to initiate it...I'm just not always willing to work as hard as I have to in order to receive it. He tells me he thinks about it, he tells me he wants me, he flirts with me now, he's physical with me now....so NOW if he wants sex...all he has to do is start it. I'll make sure it's worth his effort if he does, and have done so the few times he has followed through on his word. I've told him he can have all the sex he wants...but he's going to have to learn to ask for it or initiate it in a way that I can interperet that's what he wants.

We had that discussion back in our MC's office a few months ago. So now when he talks about..."getting together this evening!" I respond "great honey, you just let me know and I'm there ya!" Most of the time, he doesn't follow through...and I don't bail him out by doing anything about it either. It seems to make more of an impact with him by doing this....because HE KNOWS he was the one who brought it up, and HE KNOWS I'm more than willing....as long as he does something as simple as take my hand and lead me to the bedroom, or unbutton my shirt.....ANYTHING simple along those lines. It's just a matter of time and eventually....he'll get to that point too. Once I never thought he'd be doing what he is now...but he is, and I'm very proud of him for getting to this point.

GEL

Wow - the thought of my H actually initiating sex seems next to impossible at this point. But, I definitely know what you mean about being there for him. I am sure if he initiated it, there would never be a time I would turn him down because I can't imagine he would want it all that often anyway.

We are going to the C tonight - don't know if it is fair to bring it up without first running it by him, I think that's a little unfair

But I do plan on getting some more information about it - maybe some books from the library and/or there must be stuff about it online

Heywyre,

Out of curiosity...do you and your H ever see the MC individually for sessions? Our MC would occassionally see each of us when we felt it was necessary. When I made the discovery about my H's online activities (cheating) I already had an inkling of what whore/madonna was...so I asked her about it and she validated what I was wondering about, especially in light of his online activities.

It's occasionally nice to have the opportunity to speak to your therapist one on one. It gives him/her an opportunity to hear your side (as long as she/he hears your H's as well) and it really lets you feel heard, so you can safely tell him/her what you'd like to make sure is addressed. Now, having said that...at some point you need to be able to talk that frankly to your spouse too.

GEL

Yes, we have been going every week (just about) together but we also have one-on-ones too. As a matter of fact, I haven't had one for a while but while at his office today I booked an appointment by myself for this coming Monday so that will give me an opportunity to address that issue, amongst others, that I just don't feel comfortable about right now.

My H and I have talked about the W/M syndrome and he has heard about it but is still reluctant to believe it applies to him. I think the more we talk about it (especially if the C brings it up with him individually) he will begin to see how it matches his thinking

I am very much looking forward to my single session on Monday - I especially need it right now because my H seems to have moved much quicker through all of this than me and I am still stuck in the mis-trusting mode (understandably) and need some guidance as to how to move past it

As much as I was devastated by the Ax2 my H had, there is some soloce in knowing he did not have much of an emotional connection with either of them (as they were escorts and both quite young) however, he did see each of them regularly over a period of about a year each (one in 2002 and the other one in 2006) so I guess there was a bonding of some sort, but being that they were in the profession to "please" they would obviously tell him anything he wanted to hear, just for the cash. He seems to have got over that connection quite quickly, which indicates to me there wasn't much of any emotional ties.

This just confirms the theory all the more than it is the W/M syndrome because it was not like he met someone, and they connected. He sought them out for one purpose only (although his theory is somewhat different - he says it was to "help them" get out of their situation. Basically, I see that as his "excuse" to justify what he did. He is a VERY empathetic person and he has always stuck up for the underdog and tried to help the less fortunate but I think this time he went just a little too far)

GEL

I did some research on the "subject" and came up with some pretty good information that describes my H bang-on (no pun intended)

I thought "what the heck" and printed it off. I went downstairs to talk to him and said "remember when ...." and we talked briefly about a comment someone had made a number of years ago about all guys wanting a whore in bed for a wife. I said, "there is something called a madonna/whore complex and I think it describes you". Interestingly enough, he said "really, let me see" and he read it quickly and said "hmmm, I'm going to have to read over that more closely and give it some thought"

It was nice to hear, as opposed to "what a bunch of crap, those psychologists blah blah blah". Of course, getting him when he was in a pretty good mood helped too

I think this is definitely something I am going to bring up with the C on Monday. H goes to see him on May 7th so that's not too far away. I am really pleased that I at least have a label for "it" now - especially after a close friend of mine (being male I thought he would be able to help me with this problem) said "what a cop-out, doesn't he know what he has, etc. etc. etc." But unless you've been there, I guess no one can really comprehend the complexity and depth of the problem

It was VERY clear that it primarily stems from a male child being raised by a cold and distant mother. Therefore, that initial intimacy bond was never made with a female. From that point on, the male child seeks someone that reminds him of his mother, not because he's a pervert, but to "connect" with the intimacy that he lost/or never got from his mother. But, the down side is, when he finds the "mother" to nurture him, the thought of having sex with her repulses him, its like incest.

This is EXACTLY my H to a "T" - why? because he was adopted and that is one of the primary things the C is dealing with - his rejection right from birth, not to mention his very poor choice of relationships along the way. He NEVER had a close relationship with his adoptive mother - he said she was cold and distant. All the more reason to reject women, wouldn't you say.

H's response after reading that article was "yes, but how do you change it" and I said, "maybe we should talk to C to see if he can recommend someone if he's not qualified" and he said "we'll see" which is better than a firm "no" isn't it?

Heywyre,

Sometimes you need a certified sex therapist. There is a website for ASECT (I think that is the correct acronym) that will give you a list in your area.

I sympathize because I think this is going on in my R also. My dh has a great way to shut down anything sexual - if I come up from behind him while he is on the couch and kiss his neck or give a sexual caress (to try to encourage some kind of flirting/sex life outside of the bedroom) he will smile and give me a closed mouth smooch or sometimes even "jump" and and uncomfortably wiggle around. It would never occur to him to come up behind ME and do anything of the kind. Before we were married he used to do some things like that. Once we got married I became representative of wifey and Mommy - blech!

Karen

That's awesome that he didn't just shut you down on it. I had to carefully approach my H with it (he would resist me trying to "label" what's going on.) My H is very used to women from his past (because he chose very controlling women) trying to tell him he was "wrong" or things were all his fault. I couldn't have given him an article and said what you did, I had to finesse the situation more.

As for him trying to "help the girls get out of their situation", well...that's just bull. He sought out escorts and saw them on a regular basis...he used them, just as they used him for money. Plain and simple. If he wanted to help them out of the situation, he wouldn't have needed to use their services to do so...right? Anyway...that's in the past.

You bring up an interesting point I hadn't touched on about him being raised by a cold distant mother. My H was raised by a really great set of parents BUT, the NEVER show affection in front of anyone....not physical affection of any kind. No hugging, kissing, pats on the but, I Love You's...nothing like that. It's obvious by being around them that they do love each other and show it in other ways (they banter all the time), but nothing at all like you would expect from a loving couple. My MIL also likes to act like she's VERY naieve (she's not). She will change the channle if someone so much as says a cuss word...or if a woman comes on the screen in a bra/panties. So she has always made it seem as though...sex is something #1 not to be talked about, and #2 that the type of woman you would marry would not appreciate it. She's a good woman, but honestly, she set a bad role model for him in this way...completely unintentionally.

As a result my H has made some bad choices when it comes to women in his past. Those women helped to reinforce that respectful women don't like sex. The interesting thing is...I'm very certain at least two of his significant relatinships cheated on him. I know his 1st wife did, he came home early (after working three jobs to support her while she stayed home), to find her screwing another man on their living room floor. I'm pretty sure his wife prior to me did as well (yes, he's been married a few times, but looks like this is the last one for us both.) I found out from his mother in talking about things (she confided in me about his XW prior to me) that she took another man on a cruise...blatantly...wouldn't allow my H to go on the cruise with her...and took someone else, another man...with her. She also withheld sex, my own MIL overhheard her tell him "either you do as I say or you won't be getting any, I don't need it..."I" can be a sexual camel." Well apparently she wasn't...she just got it elsewhere.

So my major hurdle with my H was to get him to trust that I'm not like these women. I'm not out to hurt/control him. Just the other day he came to me and said "why couldn't I have met you twenty years ago?!" To which I respond now, "because you couldn't have appreciated me back then."

GEL

Karen,

How are things going with you?

GEL