I keep trying to tell you that you get in your own way.
From my experiences, it is difficult and extreemly frustrating to be in a r with a W and thinking if I do certain things, "we" will have a good R. So I do those certain things and am ignored anyway.
I hear you, but you work against yourself by trying those things that you think the R needs, not those things BB thinks the R needs or at least validating what BB thinks (if you don’t want to actually do something, like buy a new house). Is it any wonder that BB ignores you?
Cobra, it's more like I have these things I want to happen in a R and it builds and builds till something leaks out and someone sees a value in what I am trying to give my W. Someone sees value in what I believe in. That feels good.
That’s fine and dandy, but what does that do to help your M? Wouldn’t it be better for BB to see the value in what you do rather than some anonymous stranger on the board? Stop worrying about getting validation from outsiders. That validation doesn’t mean squat. No one on this board will come help you meet your M needs. Only BB can do that. Telling her that someone else agrees with you when she doesn’t is just a power play. How does that endear her to you? Furthermore, it makes the assumption that your POV is right and she is just too thick headed to see it. Again, is it any wonder that BB ignores you?
Now don’t get me wrong in thinking I am contradicting my earlier advice to you to rattle her cage. You do need to do this do some rattling, IMO. But when you try, you seem to end up sending conflicting signals. On one hand you try to be assertive, state your needs, make yourself vulnerable, etc., which is good. But OTOH you engage in a low level, covert power struggle to convince her she is wrong, to get her to agree with you, plus like the changes you want her to make, and relieve your sense of shame for asking in the first place. Do you not think you deserve the things you ask for? If you do, why would you ever feel guilty that she has to undergo work and pain to do them for you?
She can only come to the realization that she needs to change herself by reevaluating her world by herself. When your frustration rises and you distance, her stress rises too and she then approaches you. But you cave in and rescue her. So she never has to learn the hard lessons. She gets her soothing and reassurance and goes back to her old ways and the cycle starts over.
I still think it is your fears and your compulsion to do what others think you should do (ie, shame) that keeps you from letting BB go into her own state of anxiety and reevaluate the M. I think you fear her leaving you if she does this. You never let your crucible reach a boiling point so nothing ever changes. If she goes into her own form of midlife crisis, or high anxiety, or worry, or whatever she does, then let it stew awhile. Like I’ve told you before, she will not change as you want her to change and like it at the same time. She might eventually come around to appreciate it, but no one ever likes change. You have to decide what you want, whether you can hold onto your sense of guilt for asking for such things and whether you can get out of your own way.
It's pretty clear to me that the "neediness" that made Chrome have EAs is also the "neediness" that is preventing him from moving forward in getting a sex life. As LFL indicated what they both wanted from their interaction was validation, not hot monkey sex. So it's a classic Schnarchian example of need for validation getting in the way of basic sexuality. What if the character of Tony Soprano as pictured on last months Vanity Fair and Chrome did a wife swap? Tony might cheat on Mrs.Chrome if she remained LD but I seriously doubt that he'd be having an EA, probably just the opposite because Tony would feel like he was entitled to some p*ssy, not some affection or validation or emotional intimacy. So maybe the thing that is always signals "bad" behavior in a relationship is simply the sense of entitlement coupled with dishonesty and it doesn't really matter what it is that you feel entitled to, could be hot monkey sex or a few more than a few drinks or another baby your spouse wasn't in favor of etc.etc.etc. It's easy to figure out what the opposite of dishonesty is. IMO, it's harder to figure out what is the opposite of entitlement. If you say "I deserve it" that still kind of smacks of entitlement with some sort of moral justification or rationalization attached. I think pretty much you just gotta go with "I WANT IT." and you gotta say it out loud in order to be completely honest.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
You had written this a while back, and I wanted to address it before I forgot about it.
Quote: ------------------------------------------------------ I've gone back and read over NOPkins old posts, and even that guy, who seems like now he could take a shotgun blast to the face and it wouldn't faze him, was pouring out anguish all over the board. Even started one post with something like "don't read this if you want to be happy" or something like that. ------------------------------------------------------
When I came here, I had great skills and confidence with women. That goes way back.
The problem was that my relational skills with women existed mainly in two facets. I knew how to play them, and I knew how to be their friend. I had little to zip of an idea how to actually have a productive relationship with one. It was just not in my experience. I knew enough of marriage to manage to stay married, but just barely.
So, the guy hasn't changed much, but my skill set has improved dramatically
What you need is a dose of my intrepidity mixed in with your sensitivity. I bet that would send your wife looking for something solid to hang on to
All the best, -NOPkins-
I will ferret out an affair at any opportunity.
-An affair is the embodiment of entitlement, fueled by resentment and lack of respect. -An infidel will remain unreachable so long as their sense of entitlement exceeds their ability to reason.
What you need is a dose of my intrepidity mixed in with your sensitivity. I bet that would send your wife looking for something solid to hang on to
Yeah, I can feel that very strongly. Intrepidity (solid as a rock no matter what) is something I lack dearly. I haven't responded to the posts here yet as some of the comments sent me into a real tailspin and I wanted to let my emotions settle before I spilled a bunch of crap all over the board. I can see that on those times when I have been solid, even for a short time, my W responds very well. I just have too many openings in my armor, and too many wounds that refuse to heal.
Chrome
"Recollect me darlin, raise me to your lips, two undernourished egos, four rotating hips"
Curious...why would the comments from here send you in a tailspin? Why would you give US that much power? Don't know which comments, or group of comments would do that. I knew there was stuff being said (and I probably said a great deal of it) that would bother you...but the stuff that I, and others said, was in complete honesty to you.
Is it possible you allow those comments on here, that brutally honest feedback, to send you into a tailspin....because you are scared of dealing with some of the issues? Or possibly scared of the fallout?
My comment about tailspins was not an attempt at guilt-tripping or searching for sympathy, just an explanation of why I hadn't responded and how it is clear to me that I am not a rock.
Yes I have lots of fear about the future, in all directions. But what affected me the most was the thought that no matter what I do wrt women and R's I screw something up badly. In trying to deal with my own pain I just end up causing a lot more in other people.
Chrome
"Recollect me darlin, raise me to your lips, two undernourished egos, four rotating hips"
I wasn't thinking that you were guilt-tripping or searching for sympathy Chrome...why would you assume that? It just seemed to me that from your comment you gave us too much power to send you into a tailspin, just from our written words.
My personal opinion Chrome is that you have GOT to deal with what's gone on in the past between you two in your R and deal with the fallout from that pain before you can really move forward. You've screwed up in your past, sure...we all have. And yes, some of the things you've done have caused pain in others....but that pain is theirs to deal with. When it comes to your W, you can help her deal with her pain....and THAT may in turn surprisingly enough help you work through yours and get you to a better place as well. That's kind of what happened in my marriage after I found out what my H was doing. I was in HORRIBLE pain after I found he'd sought his fullfillment out online when I'd been working so hard to address our issues. I'm sure you might imagine how hurt I was....BUT honestly, I do believe that my H helping me through the pain, doing whatever he could to allieve my fears....HELPED HIM TOO. He's a different person today. His helping me to recover from his infidelity....actually brought him closer to me. It made us stronger in the end.
The only relationship with ANY woman you should be concerned about is the one you have with your wife....RIGHT NOW. Don't make this bigger than it is by saying things like....But what affected me the most was the thought that no matter what I do wrt women and R's I screw something up badly. In trying to deal with my own pain I just end up causing a lot more in other people. That makes it sound like every woman you come across you hurt...and that's a false statement.
Just wanted to say that the feeling that our S is "rock solid" is something whose importance cannot be overlooked. When that isn't there or is seriously diminished the M is in serious jeopardy. My current H is "rock solid" in his sense of self, his sense of committment, everything that it the foundation of a M and that keeps me in it. The lack of sex is a serious issue that if coupled with a weaker partner would end this M. Ex-H was a weak partner -no amount of sex could make up for that.
Chrome, you have it in you to develop into the kind of man your W needs. You have it in you to demonstrate to her such committment, sense of self and sense of purpose that the "betrayals" will become a thing of the past, insignificant.
Corri,
I love what you said about integrity. It is something we work on as humans every day. We "skate up to the line" over and over. Once in a while we stick a toe or two over the line. If any of us really examined our lives there are moments almost every day that demonstrate our lack of integrity or our struggle with it - in action, in thought or whatever. If someone were privy to every thought and every action of the day then it would come to light that we (a) cheat on our diet, (b) half @ss some of our work, (c) waste time while telling everyone how busy we are, (d) have flirtatious slightlly illicit interactions with others to pump ourselves up, (e)allow ourselves elaborate escape fantasies from whatever we don't like about our lives etc... That is the real deal about being human.
Frankly Chrome I wonder if describing the ins and outs of your EA's (I kinda hesitate to reference the second issue as that as I think it might fall short of my personal mark for that) wouldn't do more harm than good. I wonder if instead you wouldn't do better with Mrs. Chrome by saying - "Yes, I found myself attracted to someone else and I let it get out of hand. I will find myself attracted to others in the future but I am working on myself so it doesn't get out of hand again. It wasn't anything about who you are as a spouse or a woman that caused it. It was MY poor boundaries. I am done discussing these issues. I am sorry I hurt you. I alone am responsible for letting things get out of hand but the fact remains I am married to you, love you, want you and will do what it takes to develop our relationship to the point where you know that what I want is "us" and nothing else."
The fact remains - you didn't have an actual affair and there comes a point where even in cases where there was actual sex people HAVE to let it go at some point. Mrs. Chrome is hurt and she has a right to be. When the hurt pops up as it will from time to time - comfort her and then say (only after YOU have confidence in this statement), "I know you still hurt sometimes. It will never happen again." I'm not sure whether telling the nitty gritty (especially of a SECOND fairly insignificant involvement with someone) won't prolong Mrs. Chromes agony and give her something to fixate on, something to heap on to her feelings of failure.
Chrome honey, it is YOUR life. What do you think is right? How do want to live it? In your heart, did both situtations really rise to the same level of culpability on your part (I remember the first situation involved physical contact) or did you "stop yourself" more quickly in the second sitch and demonstrate having learned something the first time? See what I'm getting at? Only YOU can determine how you are doing in developing boundaries and integrity and at some point you need to trust yourself enough not to allow endless rehash by anyone. I have never cheated on anyone. I have been cheated on in dating relationships. It sux and healing takes a long time. Think recovery NOT rehash!
Karen First off, good luck with that baby today. Hope all goes well.
Quote:
I'm not sure whether telling the nitty gritty (especially of a SECOND fairly insignificant involvement with someone) won't prolong Mrs. Chromes agony and give her something to fixate on, something to heap on to her feelings of failure.
As time passes, it becomes more clear to me that most of this "EA" with Chrome was a delusion in my own warped head. Frankly, I think he just wanted someone else to be attracted to him. Stupid me, my own mistakes there. There is NOTHING for Chrome to tell his W about "us" other than this woman from the internet wanted to be friends and I was too nice to just say F*ck off. As for the "real" OW, from what I know of Chrome, my gut tells me that is hardly a done deal. He never talked to me about it and he seems to avoid questions on here about it, especially regarding what his W does or does not know. I have been nothing but upfront with Chrome and I feel like a real idiot the more I think about it. I just wish he would be honest with someone about all of this crap. His W being first choice, as she should be. But he is not going to be honest with any of us. Sorry if I am getting a little emotional here (big shocker), I'm more upset with myself than Chrome but I just am sick of this being rehashed over and over. I'm not one to just sit back and watch the show, I tend to jump into the line of fire, especially when my "name" comes up. That's all. LFL
