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Gel:



I thought it was twice with the same woman... not that that makes it any better... I have a very different opinion on EAs than most people here, and I don't really want to get into a philosophical discussion about it (not being harsh... just don't want to high jack and divert Chrome's thread).



True enough. I'm not saying a person heals overnight... Jesus, I can attest to that one. From his posts, however, I thought they had discussed it in depth. I agree with you... the A must be dealt with... but at some point, as you pointed out, too... the person who has been 'cheated on,' has to either move forward... or not.



Yes.



The most difficult thing most people have a hard time with involving affaris (of any type), is not necessarily the 'acts' which do or don't occur... but the LYING that goes with it. THAT is what gets the other person. No... dropping my resentment was not an overnight experience. I wasn't suggesting Ms. Chrome now has to drop her resentment. My point was that if she is going to move forward with Chrome, the resentment has to go. It is something she has to actively work on, just like Chrome must address HIS issues.

Most people, as has been pointed out here, can get over a 'first time.' The second (or third) time is an entirely different issue. Resentment will take that much longer.

My best friend is going through such a thing herself. Everything is now out in the open...(her issue is not with an affair, but the lying that occured for her issue is every bit as damaging were her H to have had an affair)... AND it is the SECOND time it has happened.

She is completely AWARE that she is half at fault for everything that led up to the second occurrence... she is NOT responsible for his lying... and boy is she angry, hurt and resentful. She is now at the stage where she has to let go of her resentment in order for her M to recover, and she is really, really struggling with it.

When she hangs on to her resentment, she doesn't have to forgive him or herself, and she gets to be 'right.' But she feels really miserable. When she actively works on letting go of her resentment, she has to take responsibility for her part in the issue, and for actively changing her own behaviors that will help imporve her M.

Neither way is easy. And BOTH spouses have to somehow find compassion and empthay and paitence with themselves and each other, to boot.

I will be the first to step forward and claim to one and all just how FCKING hard it is... if anyone has read ANY of my recent posts, I'm living in Erratic Zone myself... but for different reasons.

Recovery in an M takes two. Everything they are BOTH going through is understandable. So... I was just making some observations, that's all. I'm not saying Chrome is innocent, and I'm not saying that Mrs. Chrome is being unreasonable.

I think them both going to MC was a great suggestion.

Corri

Corrie,

Thanks for your perspective. I have been reading your posts (they're always so interesting)...I don't respond much, but I am keeping up with ya! Unfortunately there were two individuals that Chrome had EA's with. I want to keep this from being a Chrome-bashing...just keeping some facts straight. So, while he may have dealt with the initial one...if the 2nd wasn't ever dealt with and she had any inkling, that right there is enough to prevent the trust she would need to have in order to make the changes he is asking of her....or to drop resentments.

Did that make sense? I'm beginning to ramble today.

GEL

Corri,

I agree with your outlook. I see Chrome’s EAs as symptoms of the deeper problems. It doesn’t matter if there were 1 or 2 EAs. If his W doesn’t address here part of the problem, there might be more, or there might be a D. Either way, it will be because she is not addressing and fixing her part (assuming Chrome continues to do his part).

Furthermore, if the second was with LFL, then what is there for MrsChrome to be upset about? I don’t know what went on but I will assume it was only email correspondence. How much different could that be from what is posted on this board everyday, except that it is one on one. In fact, let’s turn this around. The definition of EA that I’ve seen here is something that breaks the EC between a couple, where one person is discussing intimate or vulnerable things that s/he should be reserving for the spouse. Not discussing those things precludes the opportunity for better bonding, plus the spouse feels betrayed because the other did not have the faith to trust him/her with such intimate issues. Is that a general definition we can agree on?

If so, then I would wager that Chrome’s wife is also guilty of an EA. Maybe not in the same as Chrome, in that she may not have been discussing romantic issues, but I do think she could have been discussing heartfelt issues with her mother or her friends that she should have reserved for Chrome, issues that could have brought them closer together. Chrome has even stated that he feels like an outsider with her family and in her small hometown setting. Part of this may be him. Maybe he is not so outgoing or that much of a people person, but maybe it is also his W, that she is not going to any length to include him into her circle. How is that any less damaging than Chrome talking to LFL?

Does it matter that LFL was a woman? Women discuss such matters between themselves all the time, rather than discuss them with their husbands. MWD and many others warn against this. Friends and relations are biased toward the one spouse and can actually drive a bigger wedge in the marriage, even though they mean well (or do they?) Does this not have the same effect as an EA between two people of the opposite sex? MrsChrome is as responsible for creating the conditions that led to the “EA” as Chrome was. She is also as responsible for perpetuating those conditions and not working with Chrome, instead turning to outsiders for the understanding and comfort she should allow herself to receive from Chrome.

As I recall, Chrome’s C recommended that he not discuss his “EA” with LFL. I think that is good advice from the standpoint of the M. If it prevents Chrome from being committed and honest because of his sense of guilt, then he might rethink his C’s advice. But I for one see nothing to gain from giving his W more ammunition to resent him when she is as guilty of emotional abandonment as he is. She is in an entitlement mode right now. She is entrenched in victim-think. Chrome telling her that he had a so called “EA” with LFL is only going to harden her position. This will not help the M.


Cadesmom, Heywire,

I am sorry for the pain you have gone through with repeated affairs. At the same time, I do not understand why you would do so, especially to the point of questioning yourself. I don’t think Chrome’s wife should go there. I don’t think Chrome would want her to go there. If she ever does, I don’t think the marriage will last. It is in her interests and Chrome’s that she learn what she wants in life and how to assert the needed boundaries to get there.

And that's exactly where Chrome's W is. Her whole world has been blown apart and what she thought was real, was a lie and she is now even doubting herself. A horrible, horrible place to be.

I believe this statement is misleading. What MrsChrome was living before was a lie. Her FOO was a lie. Her world was never solid to begin with. Chrome was not solid either and the cracks were bound to show up one way or another. It just so happens that an EA was the means to expose those cracks. It could have been any number of other incidents to cause the marriage to fail. If not now, then later.

As horrible as t his lesson may be, it is really a blessing in disguise. It is the only way to salvage their M and their lives, for themselves and their kids. What has blown apart is her façade of self delusion. Chrome’s façade has also been broken. It is not a bad thing, though it is painful.

Furthermore, if the second was with LFL, then what is there for MrsChrome to be upset about? I don’t know what went on but I will assume it was only email correspondence. How much different could that be from what is posted on this board everyday, except that it is one on one.

It's VERY different. Unless of course you wonder what I'm up to or fantasize about me after you read my posts or have ever asked for my picture or what kind of underwear I wear or don't wear, what my bra size is, what my fantasies are, well, you get the picture. I've had an EA and I can tell you that it shakes your M to the core and it may have very little to do with your partner....I would wager to say that is where the entitlement came from for the mini PA I engaged in as well. You've got this magical other person telling you that you deserve better, you shouldn't be treated that way, blah blah blah. The implication is that they would never treat you like that, you bond over the mistreatment of one another by your partners. Your partners become the bad guys and you two are in a wonderful world of your own where everything would just be perfect if you two had only met BEFORE you'd married the OTHER one. You know, the OTHER one who's probably out in the kitchen doing dishes or helping the little guys with homework while you and your new 'friend' hide out on the internet and bond over how mistreated you are. It's a crock. And boy, does it take a M right off it's hinges because each person is so vulnerable to believing the fantasy.

It's MUCH different than posting on this board I guarantee it. I've been more prone to leaving here being pissed than elated due to a validation fest, lol.


How is that any less damaging than Chrome talking to LFL?...
Does it matter that LFL was a woman?

Cobra, yes, it matters. It's all in the context and when attraction is present, well, everything gets all skewed. We talk to our coworkers all the time, chit chat through the course of the day, etc. Now, if I were to call one of them at, say, 8pm and start chit chatting away, my guess is that they would be confused at best and more likely highly irritated that I'm interfering with their family time. Unless of course, they were attracted to me, in which case voila, the groundwork has been laid. People KNOW when they are crossing the line even though they don't want to admit it.

Heather:

Not necessarily agreeing or disagreeing with you.



And... how does the M get to the state where you would be willing to spouse bash?



It isn't so much about validation as it is about escape. Some people take escaspe a little further than others. Just because this place isn't a validation fest doesn't mean it isn't an escape. And we have ALL certainly done our fair share of spouse bashing here.

And... how many of us are as honest IRL as we are on this board? Could be part of the problem. And I think that was what Cobra was driving at... whether its AFF.com, or your best friend, your family, an affair... what is at the base of any of these activities is an unwillingness to be honest with that person to whom you are involved. It's a dam hard thing to do, regardless of where you find your escape. Some escapes have just been labeled by society as more damaging than others.

Corri

Cobra,

You won't have any ability to relate to the damage an EA can present unless you've been the victim of one...that's just a simple fact. There are MANY people who prior to someone having an EA on them, would have said "what's the big deal?" The fact is...it IS a big deal. Chrome isn't here at the moment speaking for himself, but Chrome is someone who gets romantically involved emotionally with women. THAT IS dangerous for his marriage. You don't get romantically involved with a woman outside of your marriage, you put your foot down and address the issue....or you get out and become free to pursue romantic attachments elsewhere.

Still there are people who don't think EA's are damaging...but for those who DO believe they are, and to have someone cheat in this manner in their marriage is just as devastating as someone who has a PA.

Of course there are plenty of people who don't believe what my H did was cheating either, but what really matters is I DO. What he did was as emotionally devastating to me at the time as it would have been if he'd have had sex with another woman...and there are different forms of EA's, some include sexual content...some involve romantic attachment. If my H hadn't talked with me about what he did as I needed him to and dealt with it....it would have ended our marriage, I have no doubt. Why? Because I wouldn't have been able to trust him. Trust is the a main component in the foundation of a solid relationship.

And yes, it matters that LFL was a woman....because women are who Chrome becomes attached to romantically and emotionally. Women are who Chrome is looking for that romantic fulfillment from...he wouldn't look for that in men.

I hate that Chrome isn't here to speak up on these about things himself and give us his perspective. Often though when he's been asked in the past he tends to tell us that he's not dealing with this right now (at least that's been his past response)...which is another reason I believe this is a HUGE white elephant in his relationship.

GEL

Let me ask this.

How many of you have posted to this board from work?

And what would you all do if your boss(es) busted you on it, and printed and read, as would be their right, each and everything you posted here because they had put an internet or keyboarding software detection program on your computer?

Would that not be a violation of the trust your employer has placed in you to do the job you were hired and paid to do, rather than spend your time, here, on a BB?

You could potentially lose your livelihood over it... and if you did... would your spouse not have a right to get pissed at you for it?

So where does the line come? Who gets decide on ethical and moral behavior? Who gets to cast the first stone?

Corri

Wow Corrie...to me this is a completely non-related analogy...why? Because the trust my employer places in me is a non-romantic one. It is not an intimate one. Yes, there are conditions to my employement. However there are conditions in the vows I took in my marriage as well.

Yes, my employer places a trust in me. But it's not a romantic/emotionally invested one. Yes, I could be fired if my employer chose to,and yes my H would have a right to be pissed at me...but he wouldn't be pissed at me for getting emotionally involved with someone else, he would be pissed at me because I broke a rule I knew about. Just as I was pissed at him and hurt by his actions....that he knew were wrong. In my situation though the fact is I do my work...I always hit my deadlines and because of that I'm allowed certain priviledges when I have the time..this is one of them. If there were a policy that says "no personal internet access during work-hours", then I would have to abide by that or face the consequences, that would be a boundary my employer would have. As it stands, for me anyway, what I do on here from the office is not an abuse of their policies. But that's my individual situation and answer to your question.

However...when one takes marriage vows you vow to keep yourself for that one person only, that's generally why we marry right? That for me is where the moral difference comes in. That for me is where stepping out of the marriage romantically crosses the line morally. Because THEN you are no longer keeping yourself for your spouse alone. So many people who become involved in EA's spend their time fantasizing about that other person (I know my dad does and the woman he is emotionally involved with...doesn't even know it.) They share their intimate hopes/dreams/emotions with them quite often...and don't share those things with their spouse. They spend their time expending energy on someone else...rather than investing it in their marriage to fix whatever issue it is that prompts them to seek whatever it is they receive from the other person.

That's just my take on it though...any other perspectives?

GEL

And... how does the M get to the state where you would be willing to spouse bash?

I believe that EVERY M gets there. It's inevitable. But when you fuel that sense of entitlement with a stream of validation that happens to come from someone you could see yourself with in a R, it comes unraveled fast.

It isn't so much about validation as it is about escape.

For me, it was ENTIRELY about validation and zero about escape or a willingness to be honest either actually. But, reading your comment, helps me understand more where Cobra was coming from. I guess if escape is the motive, then I can see where the boards are more of a comparison. But still, like I said, you know when you've crossed the line with someone. Being straight, I wouldn't feel so much like I was playing with fire if I confide in a female friend. Confiding in someone that I am attracted to on the other hand is a disaster waiting to happen.

Based on your reasoning I am like the virgin of the BB because I've never cheated on anyone (Whoops, I did have my one lesbian experience when I was kind of dating someone else but everybody know that doesn't count. Right?)and I don't post from work because I'm self-employed and I even told my 2bx about this BB. Heck, I even posted my fat pictures. If I was in charge of deciding on ethical and moral behavior I would say that everyone on this BB should do whatever they can to get all the hot monkey sex they want as long as they're honest about it. I wish with all my heart that Cemar would walk up to his wife and say in a kind and respectful and perhaps wistful manner "I am seriously considering leaving you just on the off chance that I might then have the opportunity to get some really great head one day.".