Divorcebusting.com Forums Open Forums THE SEX-STARVED MARRIAGE Breakthrough ... and stuck

Chrome,

First you are NOT helpless to deal with this issue. Second I think you are exactly right that you had a breakthrough conversation. Your wife has now clearly told you had badly she has been hurt by the EA and feels that you do not love her as she is (at her CORE). I am glad that you do not realize how painful it can be to imagine someone comparing you to someone else. Try to imagine what your wife may feel - making love with you and thinking that you may be imagining or wishing that she was someone else. This would make it very difficult in the best of circumstances for her to "desire" you. Then consider the issues she has, you have, and the state of your marriage before the EAs and I hope you can understand the complications.

Because of the complication my approach would be to separate the issues out in order to deal with the ones you can by yourself.

Do not let what you cannot do interfere with what you can do. - John Wooden

What does this mean to me? First keep up the work on getting self-esteem and self-validation. Second keep focused on the things that you do have. Your wife is willing to ML and give BJ and HJs - appreciate that for right now. That does not mean that you cannot want to have more participation from her eventually; it just means learning to be appreciative of things in general. Third be more supportive of the person she IS. You (and she) may be surprised to find out that some relief of pressure may actually LET her relax and she MAY be more outgoing after all.

The whole definition of "change" in regards to people and relationship can be complicated. Could you be more clear for me? Do you want your wife to change or do you want your relationship to change? I will be even more clear – how easy would this choice be for you 1) Wife who does not want to go out or be a "party animal" however she adores you and you make passionate love 3 times a week and she actually desires you and initiates at least once per week or 2) outgoing fun "party animal" wife who is not interested in ML with you and never initiates.

She said "you don't adore me, you adore some vision of who you want me to be." I got a little upset by that and started listing the things I had done for her, sacrifices I had willingly made because I thought it would make for a happy life for her...

Why were you upset? Seriously explore YOUR thoughts to fully understand what feelings this statement brought up for YOU because I will tell you I think you responded very strongly and did not LISTEN to what she was communicating to you. I do not think you placated her. Rather you were trying to convince her that her FEELINGS of not being adored were WRONG.

Chrome I do not mean to be insensitive because I understand that you have issues from your childhood, your wife has issues from hers and your marriage was already in trouble from your POV when the EAs began. However I feel like you do not understand how much you have hurt your wife and how that hurt is real. I can understand how painful it must feel to you to know that your EA directly caused that pain for her. That is where I think you should stand up as a man and take responsibility for that pain (not everything else in her life). Your desire for a passionate relationship with her is understandable but it seems like it is putting the cart before the horse when there are some significant issues to straighten out.

I know that I am an optimist but I am a realist too. I honestly believe that from what I have read, you have a possibility to make your marriage work. It will not be easy but then again divorcing and spending time apart from your children will not be easy either. Plus you still will need to do all the personal work on yourself whether you are in this marriage or before you start a new relationship.

Your decision needs to be to FULLY want to have a great marriage with your wife and to be willing to do what it takes to get it. Ironically for all your supposed placating, I do not get the feeling that you actually placate HER. I think you are trying to comfort yourself that you have done so much for her but take a step back and think about whether you LISTEN to her, EMPATHIZE with her and, FROM A POINT OF STRENGTH, GIVE to her. Think about it. If you cannot do that for her, why would you expect her to be able to do that for you?

Also I think it is a "cheeseless tunnel" to look for reasons to validate for EAs. They happened and are over. Realize they were mistakes and let your wife know you consider them mistakes. No need to spend much time dwelling on them - just put them in the past and let your wife know they are in the PAST. Tell your wife that you CHOOSE her and choose a future with HER.

FWIW - I am not "ignoring" your wife's issues. I am just putting them on the backburner to focus on the immediate issues at hand that YOU have control over.

I wanted to respond and ask why more sex, more affection, more time together would make her miserable, but I didn't get the chance.

DON'T!!!

DO NOT put those words in her mouth!!! Stop Stop Stop...

Tell her that you do not want her to be miserable nor do you want to be miserable. Instead start looking forward together and figuring out SOMETHING, ANYTHING, that you have in common.

Maybe ask her ONE thing that you do that makes her think that you do not adore her as she IS. Then, WHATEVER she says, you just listen. You do not have to agree or disagree. She will be telling you how she FEELS. If you do not know how to respond, then a simple "I had no idea you felt that way when I did x,y, or z." is good enough.

Have you approached joining her in the bathroom in the evenings again? You could tell her that you regret stopping that routine because you really miss that time with her.

Again, focus on the positive and what you WANT and not on what you do not want.

Heather,

I understand what you are saying. It is hard to live up to a fantasy, especially when you don’t know what the other person’s fantasy really is, and most likely, the other person doesn’t really know him/herself. But does it have to be that way? Is chasing a fantasy a dead end path that can be resolved through accountability?

If Chrome’s W were to ask him what he wants and he gave her some ideas, then it would be up to her to decide if she could/would meet those goals. If not, she can counter propose. He can then decide if he will accept her counter. Either way, once an agreement is made, it is up to each person to honor their side of the agreement and be accountable for that. But it is also important for each person to come to terms with the fact that each is settling for less that his/her ideal.

If it troubles MrsChrome that Chrome is accepting her new self as only being part of who he would ideally like, then she needs to work on her self confidence. Most likely, she is also accepting him for being only part of what she would ideally like him to be. He will have to learn to control the anxiety that thought might give him. But both of them will make a choice and then both will need to be accountable to that choice. So love can be a choice.

Love also means putting forth a level of faith that the other person can control any anxiety that their partner is less than an imaginary ideal, without leaving to seek out that ideal. As long as words and actions of the spouse speak toward a commitment to the R, resolving the anxiety in the other spouse is that spouse’s issue. There is no guarantee a spouse will not leave for someone else in the future. That can always happen. But if needs are being met and respect maintained for YOU by your spouse, that spouse will likely prefer to stay than leave.


This kind of change is a fruitless endeavor because I honestly don't feel like any kind of change will be good enough....

Why do you think this? Are other women smarter than you? Are they more capable as a mother? Are they more sexy and desirable? Before you answer, first define smarter, better, more sexy. There is no one answer. Comparing yourself to some ideal is a losing game. The key, IMO, is not worrying over your flaws, but recognizing that you have flaws and are willing to address them with your spouse.

She's not responsible for what Chrome did, so from her perspective, how is changing going to prevent it in the future?

It won’t. All his W can do is judge Chrome’s trustworthiness based on his actions and put her trust in him. The more he can uphold her expectations, the safer she feels and the more love she will hopefully feel in return.

Now, we all know that the goal is to change yourself into the person you want to be, into a person that your partner will want to be with. But she needs to come to that realization in THAT way....not as a result of 'giving Chrome what he wants'.

Why does this really matter? Does it mean more that she changes because it was her idea to become a better person or that it was his idea in order to save the marriage? Should she feel that he is “one up” because he asked her to change rather than doing it on her own? How much of that dilemma is influenced by ego, and therefore by lack of self confidence?

Fearless,



I’m going to differ her. I think this is the exact type of question Chrome needs to bring up. I think his W goes to great lengths to suppress how she really feels about life, not just Chrome and the M. Any discussion that touches on what she really wants will be helpful. Her M.O. is avoidance.

"You just want to change me into her."

She cried a lot after saying that, and after she settled down a bit,….

I don’t get the impression she was crying because she was reliving hurts from the EA, I think she was crying because she does not know what to do (just like Chrome), she feels hopeless, lost, powerless and that scares the cr@p out of her. She is looking for the support and security she is accustomed to getting from her parents and it is not coming.

This scenario is different from crying because of hurt from the EA. I do think she feels that, but I think her bigger issue is that the EA hurt has exposed deeper insecurities. If she were a fully secure and confident person, and she saw Chrome going through the counseling and learning needed to turn his life around, I think she would be quite reassured by it. She might still be wary, but she would be reassured.

GEL, I see you as this type of confident woman. If your H went through the efforts Chrome has, how would you feel about the security of your M? Would you be crying as Chrome’s W is? If not, then there is another issue at play, and I think the “evidence” keeps coming back to MrsChrome’s issues.

Chrome can do a lot to help comfort her, but this is something she is going to have to be willing to face on her own. She can decide to deal with this voluntarily, through the guidance of a counselor, understanding the importance of this for her M, or she can confront this involuntarily after the M has split and she is “forced” to find a way to save the M. In the latter case, she might not have the support of Chrome to help her through. Better that he pushes the issues now, IMO.

Cobra,

Honestly that question is difficult to answer without knowing if Chrome has ever really come clean about the A's with her and how much work they've done to heal that pain. If he has come clean and they have done work to heal that pain...then yes, I believe if I were in that situation his work would be reassuring to me. I would also be more willing to work WITH him. This is a main reason I was so willing to work with my H after I found out about his online infidelity. He did work to address what he had done to our marriage, to me...and why he did it. I didn't always know what he found out...but I could see his behavior change. So I was willing to work with him and work through it.

However, if he has not come clean and they have not done what it takes to deal with the EA's or the pain resulting from them....then I would still have doubt/suspicion in my mind and his working hard to confront MY issues...would piss me off and hurt me. I would be resistent to it. I would feel like I was being compared to someone else that he preferred being with...and that would hurt.

That's my honest answer....does that answer your question?

GEL

GEL,

Yup, makes sense to me!

Chrome's wife said; "You just want to change me into her."

Chrome, this is exactly why I have hammered on you to tell your wife the truth, all of it.

You marriage has the foundation blown out from under it. You simply can build much or expect much without trust.

You wife doesn't know what "I want more sex, better sex, passionate sex, tender sex, whatever sex" means. She has no point of referent. She wonders if it means sex like other woman, sex like other partners, sex like what?

I will once again use the "honest" word with you. Until you have been honest with your wife - about everything, you will gain little ground.

All the best,
-NOPkins-

She basically said that one of us is going to have to change who they are, and that person will be miserable. I think her exact words were "I feel like you are going to leave me if I don't change, and then I will be miserable either way." I wanted to respond and ask why more sex, more affection, more time together would make her miserable, but I didn't get the chance.

MY opinion is to not put words in her mouth but to ask "why will you be miserable either way." Let her fill in the blanks. DO NOT assume you know what will make her miserable.

MY opinion is that she MAY feel miserable because she worries she will have to PRETEND to be someone else. COMPLETELY different than saying that more sex, more affection and more time together will make her miserable.

Telling someone how they feel, what they feel or what they SHOULD feel does not usually work. Remember how strongly you have reacted when you thought I was telling you to not want a passionate relationship? I was only trying to tell you that you were fixated on it and that it was getting in your way. I NEVER told you to not want it. You MAY be having a similar communication issue with your wife. That is why it is better to ask open ended questions and let HER tell you what she is feeling.

MY opinion is that accepting what she tells you as the truth will do more to open communication between the two of you. Treating her feelings and thoughts with respect will encourage her to talk to you which I think is what you want.

GEL,

OK, I replied too quickly.... another thought came to mind.... one the dovetails with Nop's comments.... how do you know your H has come clean? How do you know when you should feel reassured and be willing to work with him? What if there are other things he did that you do not know about? How will you ever know?

If Chrome came clean about EAs 1 & 2, how will his W know that she should still not trust him because there might be a potential EA 3 & 4 still out there? OTOH, if he did not tell her about EA #2, will divulging that make her feel better? Will it help move the marriage and the trust levels forward? Or will it help him feel better about himself so that he can project the confidence that is otherwise being blocked by his guilt? Will lack of guilt actually translate into more confidence or will it not make any difference?

Cobra,

At some point anyone who has been cheated on has to accept that either they have been told the truth OR that they have enough information to base their decision to remain in their marriage on. Sometimes you have to accept that no matter what you may never have EVERYTHING, because you can't crawl into your spouse's head and know absolutely that you do have all the info...I had to go with "I have enough". Having a spouse who truly shows remorse helps in this process. Having a spouse who will answer your questions (if you need to ask them) about the A, helps. Having a spouse who does the work to figure out why they did what they did in the first place, helps (I believe Chrome is doing this part.) However rebuilding the trust can take YEARS.

Now, if Chrome did come clean about EA #2 (I believe he did about EA #1) it's going to be hard for her to trust him...period, plain and simple. It's tough enough to get past one infidelity, add another in and well...the hurdle to trust is that much harder to overcome for the betrayed partner.

Some people who have cheated feel it's better not to "come clean", thinking they justify not doing that because they don't want to hurt their spouse again..thinking they will never be discovered. Sad thing is though, someone who has been cheated on once will have their radar up for it to happen again...and it wouldn't surprise me at all if she suspected about his 2nd EA. People when they are cheating have a change in their behavior...they often don't think they do, but they do...a spouse will usually pick up on it in some manner, they often deny it, but they usually pick up on it. If she suspected he cheated again...and he hasn't been honest with her about it, she won't trust him.

If he has come clean about the 2nd time she's going to have to go through that healing process all over again and it may take YEARS before Chrome's wife can truly feel she can really trust him again...it's a long ardurous process that takes time and consistent behavior from the cheating spouse to reinforce.

For her to overcome the fears that he won't do this to her/them again...it helps to see that he's doing the work inwardly at counseling to figure out why he went there to begin with, to avoid that pitfall in the future.

I've talked with many betrayed spouses since my H's online infidelity and the school of though is split, it is primarily one-sided though with the majority saying that having the cheater's confession (and I whole-heartedly agree with it)is better than having the suspicion, or discovering the truth on your own at a later date. When someone betrays you and they confess it helps to (in a painful way) reinforce a reason to trust them again...even at a very miniscule level. After all, they didn't HAVE to tell you what they did...it at least shows a minimum level of respect for their spouse that they told them the truth...and chose not to continue the betrayal by keeping the deception to themselves. If a cheater doesn't confess on their own and the spouse has had a suspicion...well I'm sure you can see that will destroy trust, add doubt, and foster resistence.

IMPO...if Chrome comes completely clean with his wife (still assuming he hasn't) then he should feel better about himself for being honest with her...and doing what is right. Not easy, but right. Sure, it's going to be difficult and painful....but for a marriage to be a good and trusting one....you cannot have a secret like this and expect the foundation not to crumble...it will.

I don't think Chrome has a lack of guilt for what he did, but if he did that does not translate to more confidence, it's simply a lack of guilt...and that would be a scary sign that he would cheat again.

Personally, I still maintain that the foundation of this marriage is cracked....it has to be fixed before you can build on it. I still personally really believe that Chrome must come clean with his wife totally before he's going to reap the rewards of her trust and hopeful change in behavior towards him sexually.

GEL