Cobra she is scared of everything and driven by anxiety Anxiety, not wanting to be uncomfortable, and some entitlement issues, I say are down side elements to a picture of BB. There are up side elements to BB so I am not implying the negatives out weigh the good traits she has.
Referring to Lou's personality I’d say very resistant to change Some changes I embrace, others seem indulgent, or mostly good as window dressing for my usage.
Examples Cell phone yes. Camera phone no, I wouldn't use one 99% of the time. BB might want one but she uses her cell once a month to find me at Wal-Mart. That doesn’t warrant a camera phone.
you say he and his wife came to visit, but it sounds like you felt excluded, The old guilt trip was working on me at the time. Good people go to church and have their kids in youth programs, that sort of thing.
Do you know how many times I’ve heard you say BB is “picky?” This is resentment, passive aggressive style. Where does this come from? I post what is Cobra. Compared to me, when we go out or visit someone, BB's list of what she didn't like or what has to be just right, is much longer than mine. Maybe she is more selective than I am. Here is a picture of my house boat. http://www.ahajokes.com/crt016.html J
Example, similar to Choc's W, if a parking area next to a dining place if fuller than BB likes, she doesn't want to eat there. If the parking lot has just a few cars, she doesn't want to eat there. There are other examples of what qualifies a cross off the list retail establishment, for BB.
I drove home one time but stopped before getting back home. I suppose I should have gone and stayed home. What is picky and what is selective??? P/A? Yes. It gets to be annoying.
Some resolution has come out of that time I headed back home. Sometimes before we leave the house I pick two places; BB picks two places when pickiness might be a problem.
Another Picky topic. How about day-lite savings time? BB doesn't like DST, I do.
She didn't like turning the clocks ahead or back for the time changes or setting the clocks when the power went off so bought, automatic-time-setting clocks. One is set by a radio signal, the other has a chip that was programmed to make the changes in the spring and fall, but now it is off by several weeks, so once again she wants new clocks and I said No. It's up to me to be the clock person.
Don't take what I post as me making a complaint; it is a picture of our differences.
She has too much ego to admit her true fears, so she deflects by trying to substitute material comfort for emotional comfort. You see this as her being selfish, picky, materialistic, shallow, and it pits you two in your own power struggle. I see that. That is why I say she has a princess like, thinking process at times. Determining what is princess, anxiety, fear, entitlement, her wanting a higher standard of living/me feeling fine with basics, many times I have to choose between feeling selfish or feeling taken advantage of or just being chicken and doing nothing. Of course, doing nothing is a good option more times than I realize.
“You Don’t Have to Take it Anymore” I will look at the book
her buying so much stuff and you hanging on to things I modified this statement from it's original to show how we differ and what motivates our respective actions when it comes to buying something new or hanging on to the old things.
I look at the work that went into something and it’s utility. BB looks at am item's "promised benefits" and style. There are more promises than delivered benefits when it comes to advertised products.
So with all this, can you see how you are really getting in your own way? I can see that when I want to have a more compatible/functional R with BB and think I am doing something she would appreciate and deserves some reciprocation, as in she would do something for me that I like, based on co operative a model, I build up expectations that are not going to come about. I have to give up the thoughts there is a way to make BB happy, that what I do is satisfying to her, or what I do will lead what each of us really obtaining what we each want.
I am reminded of a story about the king that wanted something to eat that was hot and cold. Sweet and salty. Soft and crunchy. His wise servant made him a hot fudge sunday topped with peanuts.
I can glean some advice from that story. A person has to be creative.
Sometimes I just wonder if BB is alergic to nuts and even if I come up with the winning combinations, will something keep me from reaching a goal?
Cobra said Let me see, if I could have a nickel for each time Lou whined about how hard he worked…....and I can’t help but think there is resentment here too.
Cobra, combine the idea of working too much with working too hard and picture where I am. Some of the reasons I post this over and over again, is me admitting I didn’t have the best plan that would have lead to being a well rounded family man. I am
I am giving an example of what didn’t work and saying don't do what I did. There have been male posters that had signs of working too much included in their posts.
Haphazard/Fran has a similar problem with her H. If I could give Mr. Haphazard a picture of what I thought I was accomplishing by working extra hours, but now realize it wasn't working well for the family, I would be glad to list the plusses and minuses from where I sit and answer his questions.
Information about ED: I watched the "Talk Sex With Sue" program and a female caller that had a 39 year old male partner with a recent prostate surgery, wanted to know what she could do for her 39 yr old partner. Sue recommended a book "Making Love Again: Hope for Couples Facing Loss of Sexual Intimacy" by Virginia and Keith Laken
I posted the book title thinking of Lil and some other posters, but maybe she/they already know of the title.
I also know that it takes a willing partner for the book's ideas to work.
I've read the book. The H and W in the book were VERY motivated. Also they had an extremely active sex life before his prostate surgery. Even so, they almost divorced over the ED issue, before they worked it throught.
H and W in the book were VERY motivated I took into consideration your and bf's motivation's. I added the "if you had two motivated partners" to my above post.
The "Talk Sex With Sue" caller had a motivated partner and Sue suggested the book and a penis splint that looked like a flat shoe-horn.
Oh well, (sad for you and bf) the advice is not much good if the guy won't utilize it.
After all that dialogue, I can’t see anything but finger pointing at BB’s issues.
Anxiety, not wanting to be uncomfortable, and some entitlement issues, I say are down side elements to a picture of BB. There are up side elements to BB so I am not implying the negatives out weigh the good traits she has.
So what’s the point? Are you willing to help her work through her anxiety (what whatever issue she has) or not?
Some changes I embrace, others seem indulgent, or mostly good as window dressing for my usage.
You’re still judging her…
Examples Cell phone yes. Camera phone no, I wouldn't use one 99% of the time. BB might want one but she uses her cell once a month to find me at Wal-Mart. That doesn’t warrant a camera phone.
… just rationalization for your judgment.
I post what is Cobra. Compared to me, when we go out or visit someone, BB's list of what she didn't like or what has to be just right, is much longer than mine.
More judging…
Maybe she is more selective than I am.
Don’t make excuses by putting yourself down as somehow less sophisticated and therefore entitled to judge.
That picture says yacht, not boat. That’s high livin’ Does it have a grill so you can cook up some vittles?
Example, similar to Choc's W, if a parking area next to a dining place if fuller than BB likes, she doesn't want to eat there. If the parking lot has just a few cars, she doesn't want to eat there. There are other examples of what qualifies a cross off the list retail establishment, for BB.
So? What’s your point? She’s different than you. Furthermore, just go eat where you want and stop worrying about her blaming you because she can’t have a good time. You happiness depends way too much on her approval. She won’t give it, so you enslave yourself to never being happy. Then you complain about it. Stop looking to her for validation of your likes. Go eat what you want. If she doesn’t like it, “let her eat cake.”
I drove home one time but stopped before getting back home. I suppose I should have gone and stayed home. What is picky and what is selective??? P/A? Yes. It gets to be annoying.
Again, only annoying because you require her happiness and approval for you to feel good. What if she never gives this to you? Will you spend the rest of your life unhappy because of her?
Some resolution has come out of that time I headed back home. Sometimes before we leave the house I pick two places; BB picks two places when pickiness might be a problem.
Sounds like a workable compromise.
Another Picky topic. How about day-lite savings time? BB doesn't like DST, I do.
How about pickyness over the sun coming up too early, or the moon being too bright? Come on, Lou. It’s almost laughable the things you listen too. Which is worse, her pickyness or your listening to her pickyness? What she wants is for you to listen, to give her some connection. She uses pickyness because it seems to work pretty well for her.
Don't take what I post as me making a complaint; it is a picture of our differences.
Your complaints don’t bother me. I’m not living with BB. And if my wife complains about something I find ridiculous, then she can do something about, because I won’t.
I see that. That is why I say she has a princess like, thinking process at times. Determining what is princess, anxiety, fear, entitlement, her wanting a higher standard of living/me feeling fine with basics, many times I have to choose between feeling selfish or feeling taken advantage of or just being chicken and doing nothing. Of course, doing nothing is a good option more times than I realize.
What does any of this have to do with connecting with her? This is all about how Lou can protect himself. Do you see why you stay stuck?
I look at the work that went into something and it’s utility. BB looks at am item's "promised benefits" and style. There are more promises than delivered benefits when it comes to advertised products.
More judgment…
I can see that when I want to have a more compatible/functional R with BB and think I am doing something she would appreciate…
… sounds ok so far…
.. and deserves some reciprocation,….
…ooops, you just blew it with that word “deserve”… Yes, you deserve to be happy, etc, but thinking you deserve something, coupled with your judgment of BB, sets up resentment and a nasty power struggle….
…. as in she would do something for me that I like, based on co operative a model,…
There you go again, judging the relationship and how BB “should” feel based on your definition of “cooperative.” What if BB does not agree with cooperative? In fact, it doesn’t seem that she does, since she doesn’t cooperate much at all. Why do you think that is?
I build up expectations that are not going to come about. I have to give up the thoughts there is a way to make BB happy, that what I do is satisfying to her, or what I do will lead what each of us really obtaining what we each want.
Lou, it occurs to me that perhaps you have a different idea of what leading means. IMO, leading does not mean trying to find the compromise solution that will make everyone happy. Sure, you might have to do some of that, but a real leader follows his beliefs, his values, his purpose, then gathers those around him who want to follow ideals. So the followers follow willingly.
But they do not follow BLINDLY. Those followers SOUGHT OUT a leader. They made a conscious decision to find someone to follow, someone they like. There are others leaders out there who did not qualify for them, just like there are men who are not attractive for a woman to follow. When she settles with a man, it is because she chose him to follow.
You seem to think men need to make our followers (i.e., BB) happy or she will not follow you. Maybe. But I think the fact that she has stayed with you all these years says something, don’t you think? I think she agrees with your ideals, or she never would have married you in the first place. She would have married and followed some other man. This should be extremely comforting to you Lou. It says BB is with out or her own choice. You do not have to please her. Just being yourself pleases her.
On the other hand, if you let out the REAL Lou, will it be something that repulses BB? Will she leave you? Is that why you seem to require her approval so much? Or is it just your insecurity, your fear that she will not follow you no matter what you do, so you have to exert a subtle control over her so she will not think the grass is greener somewhere else? Maybe this is why you judge her? To keep her from exerting her free will which could lead her astray, in a similar way that she did with that preacher? I know you said the idea of separating from her is scary. Yep, thinking that you might turn around one day to find that your followers have gone off in a different direction is a scary thought or all leaders. That’s why the followers don’t want to do it. But then, you don’t want BB to lead you either. So again, you’re stuck.
Can you see this scenario Lou? I can’t tell if anything I say is getting through. You keep replying by dancing around the issues and never tackling anything head-on.
I am reminded of a story about the king that wanted something to eat that was hot and cold. Sweet and salty. Soft and crunchy. His wise servant made him a hot fudge sunday topped with peanuts.
Hmmm…. the all compromising king, the one who never makes anyone upset. Its all a fantasy.
I can glean some advice from that story. A person has to be creative.
Meaning “A person has to be creative to stay safe.”
[/b]Sometimes I just wonder if BB is alergic to nuts and even if I come up with the winning combinations, will something keep me from reaching a goal?[/b]
See what I mean?
Cobra, combine the idea of working too much with working too hard and picture where I am. Some of the reasons I post this over and over again, is me admitting I didn’t have the best plan that would have lead to being a well rounded family man.
No, I now think the reason you post this over and over is so you have an excuse to not take the leader role. Your concern and compassion for the feelings of others is commendable, but I think you also do it to protect yourself. Pleasing others means you do not have to confront the possibility of anyone disliking you and not following. You don’t have to make the hard decisions. You can always be the good guy and never have to take the blame.
The problem I see is that recipe doesn’t work with BB. I think she sees your not leading as weakness, and weakness does not give a secure, comfortable feeling to her. Maybe that’s why BB takes it on herself to stock the house with things that might give her a feeling of security. She doesn’t get that feeling from you. You can’t give it because you think she already won’t follow you. That’s a tough catch-22, but it is one that you can break. Just stick your neck out a little and take on some risk. It won’t kill you.
She said she trusts me, has security, and I do share my success . What is missing is, I am not open to new ideas and resist change.
What you said earlier seems to imply BB has no real complaint with your leadership. It seems contradictory to what I am saying now. But could we be talking about two different things? When BB says that she trusts you and has security in you, does she mean material things, like food, clothing and a home to live in? You seem to focus almost exclusively on physical things, like work and money. For that, BB seems to be saying that she trusts you, has security with you and that you share your success.
When she says you resist change and are not open to new ideas, is she talking on an EC level? Perhaps this is where you come up short? You have 50% influence over that. There seems to be so much in your relationship that depends on you, yet you give me the impression that you feel you have very little influence. Is this the victim in you creating this way of thinking?
Cobra, combine the idea of working too much with working too hard and picture where I am. Some of the reasons I post this over and over again, is me admitting I didn’t have the best plan that would have lead to being a well rounded family man.
Are you having trouble forgiving yourself for your past work problems, when you got hurt and couldn’t provide? Do you feel like you let BB down and do not deserve to be the leader? Is that why you could not follow Nop’s advice to make yourself look and feel good and go take dancing lessons? At the time you pointed to concerns that BB might take it badly and get her feelings hurt. But was the real reason to protect you, not BB?
I am interested in seeing your response to Cobra. I think he makes a lot of good points. Lou you need to learn to let go. You are responsible for your happiness not your wife. Don't complain take action if you are that unhappy. If she doesn't want to eat out because of that much anxiety then you could try this and say, " Honey I can see you are very stressed so I will take you home. However I don't mind cars or lines so I am going to go ahead and go. Would you like me to bring you something back?"
The more you do this you will achieve this... A. You may be a lot happier because you are doing what you want. B. She may actually start to learn you won't cave into her attitudes.
Do this one time and just see the next time you go out if she complains as much.
I’m transferring this from the “Breadwinning Wives and Houswork” thread…
Cobra: CobraIMO, when the kids do not want to help and are actually trying to find ways to get out of the work, they are not following your principle, they are not giving the respect to their father that he gives them.
Lou: Right On Cobra.
I may be wrong, but I get the impression that you believe there is a certain virtue, even an obligation, for kids to respect their elders. To see kids be disrespectful does not sit well with you, especially after all the hard work you have put forth in your life to support your family.
I don’t know about you, but I think that as a responsible adult, I have paid my dues, as have you, and that I am entitled to a certain amount of respect from my kids. There may be some entitlement here, which may not be all good, but there is also a boundary, that I will be treated with a minimum level of respect and certainly no disrespect from my kids, for whom I do so much. Do you agree so far?
So if you believe in maintaining a boundary of minimum respect from your kids, why would you not have a similar boundary when it comes to BB? This boundary of respect is for you and has nothing to do with who the other person is or what their age. So when you allow less from BB, you are demeaning yourself. For passive aggressive people who do not like confrontation, the only way to purge the building resentment is to take it out on yourself. That creates a cycle of self loathing.
So sacrificing too much for others, then enduring the resentment that follows is self-punishment. If you don’t believe it, take a good hard look at CeMar. His latest thread says it all. Self flagellation in the flesh. (How one can interpret that as the will of God is beyond me.) Proper boundaries with BB may seem selfish and hurtful, but a healthy Lou makes for a happier BB. So stand up for yourself, which means to take it easy on yourself, for BB’s sake.
So when you allow less from BB, you are demeaning yourself. For passive aggressive people who do not like confrontation, the only way to purge the building resentment is to take it out on yourself. That creates a cycle of self loathing. P/A? in an example like Corri mowing the grass, I suppose.
cemar...His latest thread says it all. Self flagellation in the flesh [/b] I don't understand the CB-2000 items, but have felt my sex drive mismatch to be a problem with not many appropriate solutions.
Cobra, thanks for the lengthy reply. I know it takes effort in addition to time to post.
I don’t debate ideas just for the fun of it, so some of your oppositions to what I say on the forum, sound like point proving, which I tend to not see the value. I rather have global solutions. Here goes anyway.
An example is: That picture says yacht, not boat. That’s high livin’ Does it have a grill so you can cook up some vittles? Boat/yacht, I see the picture as hardware consistent with my version of boat material? Certainly not yacht material. It would have to be twice as long to be a yacht, don’t ya think?
Cook up some vittles? Sure if you can make a far" in a 5 gallon bucket. ( "far" southern/hillbilly pronunciation of the word fire) And what do you mean "grill", my car has one but it’s busted. I didn’t know you could use it to cook on!
That is humor. I like it Cobra.
I know you have your opinion and that I will respect. You say I deflect; I say I explain the history behind what happened or didn’t happen. Maybe I give too many details in one area and not enough of something else in my posts.
Lou, it occurs to me that perhaps you have a different idea of what leading means. IMO, leading does not mean trying to find the compromise solution that will make everyone happy. Sure, you might have to do some of that, but a real leader follows his beliefs, his values, his purpose, then gathers those around him who want to follow ideals. So the followers follow willingly.
That statement sounds like I just need to mentally dump BB wishes and wants, her pets and half the family, do my thing and if someone wants to follow me, good! If not, I should have little regard or feelings of obligation for the years we have been together.
I suspect you are saying I need to just lead how it pleases me, and BB will follow. To an extreme, it sounds like an excellent plan for a more skilled or almost perfect leader, if they attracted the correct type of follower. I have skills in many areas and some limitations and tend to work with what I see as reality.
I will admit I have what it takes to do a good job leading in many areas. I will also admit to some, not so skilled leadership areas. Then there is the case of having a spouse that would be considered a good/compatable follower. Not because the spouse is a good or bad person, but because each person wants something different. Then there is the added variable of which direction does this group go.
I have considered M’s a partnership, with one spouse doing what h/she did best, and the other spouse supporting that goal, or not outright trying to destroy a leaders goal.
I saw many of the male leadership marriages back in the 50/60’s. Some couples/spouses very happy and some unhappy. That was when there were “colored” and “white” water fountains in public buildings. My, how things have changed. (just some contrasting history) The concept of leadership vs independence changes too.
I hear you cobra, what does water fountains have to do with your M to BB? The water fountain example is just history.
It is strange how at one time people think one way and at another time think a different way. People look back at what they used to believe in and discover the old way isn’t what was actually correct or a realistic belief.
I listened to the mid-60/70/80/90’s “women are equals” “men are privileged” (e.g. had it too good at women‘s expense) speeches/sound bites, even enrolled in a “Women’s Issues” class in college about 1990. Oh, add in lots of co-dependency books too.
Now, women want leadership! Lead and they will follow? So part of society is back to a modified 50’s model. Sounds good, has some validity, according to what the women and men on this forum post, and what is also in some books. So what di I do with my 1950's "Home Economics" book that states: "Before yout h comes home, pick up the childrens toys, have dinner ready, and freshen up in the bathroom before he opens the door." Just kidding Cobra. I am point out how what is supposed to be right at the time, changes.
Well, I am here to learn and find/practice/develop some of those leadership traits/skills.
I think she agrees with your ideals, or she never would have married you in the first place. When we started our journey, our ideas were more compatible/similar than they are now. I will modify what we had that is usable and what we currently have and/or can make work. I also will dump some ideas that I have to make the R work.
NOP’s dance idea: I still think about it, but thinking is not doing.
Is NOP challenging me to quit being chicken?
If I do it then I have enough fortitude to break my usual MO.
It might shake BB up enough to lead to some type/form of marital improvement.
It might cause more distrust or resentment, for some time period but maybe that is good.
If I do it, it might look like I want female friends more or in addition to BB’s company, or it might look like more than me pursuing an activity such as dancing for the sake of dancing.
Other reasons....... but not now.
Tryingtohold You are responsible for your happiness not your wife Trying, my goal is not to make BB happy but for “US” to be happier and have more common, pleasurable interests and activities.
If she doesn't want to eat out because of that much anxiety then you could try this and say, "Honey I can see you are very stressed so I will take you home. However I don't mind cars or lines so I am going to go ahead and go. Would you like me to bring you something back?" Good solution to a former bad situation. The MC said something similar and added that sometimes I need to accommodate my W’s wishes.
So far, our partial solution is for me to push ahead with what I want most of the time and suggest to BB it’s what I want to do and tell her crowds have not been a real problem before, while acknowledging that she saying she has anxieties.
In another form, avoid telling BB her anxiety is inflated and don’t try to convince her otherwise. don't go intofixing mode.
On busy days like the days before and after Thanksgiving or the days before Christmas, I automatically go to the store alone. Other days I invite her but don't dwell on how many people are at the store. That is my accomodation to BB's problem sofar.
I didn't address all of the topics. I was playing grandpop. If anything was important you feel I missed, call it out. I still have $$$ work to do and am returning to it, along with disposing of a few things.
cemar...His latest thread says it all. Self flagellation in the flesh
I don't understand the CB-2000 items, but have felt my sex drive mismatch to be a problem with not many appropriate solutions.
I did not try to look up the CB-2000 from work. I knew it would not get through the company firewalls. I checked it on my Blackberry. It is an odd little plastic device, sort of like a sleeve that goes over the penis with a ring on the bottom that goes around the scrotum and can be adjusted to fit so that it can’t be taken off. The whole contraption can be locked on top with a mini padlock.
I’m sorry, but I just don’t know how such a thing can end up on a man unless he wants it there. I still don’t know why CeMar would have run across such a thing on the internet (maybe he thought he could fit a chastity belt on Mrs.CeMar, LOL!) But then, there are many unanswered questions we have about ol’ CeMar.... one of life's great unsolved mysteries....
P/A? in an example like Corri mowing the grass, I suppose.
Or as in your sitch, grumbling about BB’s pickyness and withholding of affection, then judging (and implicitly demeaning) her in return.
