Cobra wrote: ---------------------------------------------- You know exactly what you were implying.... ----------------------------------------------
That is precisely correct. I know what I was implying. Why you think you know is beyond my comprehension.
I own all my actions. That is why I am where I am today.
I make no claims as to perfection, yet you loudly infer that I do. Why is it so important to you that you win some imaginary "victory" over me? It seems that the person with the issues here is you.
Let me make sure I give you what you want - I am not perfect. Does that make you feel better?
I'm done with your game. Go play by yourself.
-NOPkins-
I will ferret out an affair at any opportunity.
-An affair is the embodiment of entitlement, fueled by resentment and lack of respect. -An infidel will remain unreachable so long as their sense of entitlement exceeds their ability to reason.
That is precisely correct. I know what I was implying.
Wasn’t that my original point? Stop being so cryptic with such meager posts? Make your point clearly so there is no misunderstanding? Explain what you mean and why? Now you say you were implying after all? Which one is it?
I make no claims as to perfection, yet you loudly infer that I do.
Now you are assuming.
Why is it so important to you that you win some imaginary "victory" over me?
Where did this idea of “victory” come from? Do you think in those terms? I was only pointing out that your implication of an affair was not founded.
It seems that the person with the issues here is you.
Maybe that goes both ways.
Let me make sure I give you what you want - I am not perfect. Does that make you feel better?
Doesn’t affect me one way or the other. You’re not saying anything I don’t already know.
I think you know that I am in the same camp as you regarding “don’t ask don’t tell.” I think that only serves to delay the inevitable and preserve the cloud of denial. I’ve been quite confrontational at times when trying to break through cloud. I’ve also been wrong plenty of times and have admitted when I am on the wrong path.
Okay. I disagree with your assertion that you admit that you're wrong plenty of times. I've cringed quite often at what I would consider your browbeating of people who don't quickly accept your assessment of their situation or character.
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But I try not to make more of something based only on assumptions. Patterns do tell a lot. It is one thing to talk about patterns concerning denial, FOO, resentment, that sort of thing, but it is altogether something else to go around throwing out ideas that a spouse is having an affair. IMO, judgment on some things need to be withheld until there is proof.
Why is it one thing to talk about narcissism and another to talk about affairs? Why is it one thing to lable someone with a mental illness, and another to point out that certain activities/behaviors/attitudes are congruent with infidelity?
Upon what are you making the distinction, other than your personal preferences?
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There are lots of things that can make a duck look like a duck without it being a duck. There may be plenty of reasons Mrs Chrome is on the PC late at night without her engaging in an EA or even thinking about an EA. They have enough trouble already without stirring up further concerns that may prove to be totally unfounded.
And if that's true (that they have enough trouble), then Chrome is an adult who can then say that he doesn't want to discuss it, think about it, or look into it. I don't think I've ever seen NOP push his thoughts on anyone who gives an indication that they don't want to go there.
And I must point out that NOP did not hint or intimate that there was a possible affair. What he DID do, is wave a caution flag to Chrome and encourage him not to avoid looking into this *possible* vulnerability based on misplaced guilt.
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If Nop wants to say one possibility for her actions could be an EA and Chrome should keep an eye out, but many other things could also explain t his behavior, then fine. But he did not add those caveats, did he?
I guess I'm missing your point. NOP says what NOP thinks. NOP does not say what Cobra thinks. His input stands on its own merit to be judged by the recepient. Are you under the misguided impression, that everyone must post all possible scenarios/possibilities in every post? Perhaps you do, since that would explain the multi-paragraph missives that are the verbal equivalent of a bull in a china shop with contradicting suggestions often in the next paragraph.
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Yep, and I don’t accept it on blind faith. So if what you say is true, why are you so ticked off if I question you? I see other instances of this, like on that thread Lil just posted. It seems like you don’t want anyone questioning you.
NOP answers questions that come from the person to whom he is posting. Why do you have such an visceral response when he doesn't answer you in situations that aren't focused upon you? If Chrome (or any individual on their own thread) has an issue, question, disagreement, whatever - they can post it. I have never seen NOP even hint at anything equivalent to "do this because I said so and maybe I'll explain it all to you later" - but this appears to be what you are consistantly accusing him of.
In your earlier thread, NOP went into great detail in regards to his advice to you. Go through it and see just how much explaining he did. You either couldn't see it or just didn't agree with it, but nowhere in it did he encourage you to blindly follow his suggestions.
From my viewpoint, you've been chasing him about several threads, making ill-informed comments about him and just seem to be jumping up and down for his attention. To what purpose? If you disagree, post your disagreement. You haven't really been posting disagreements as much as you've been posting demands that he answer your questions and explain things to your satisfaction.
Lil didn't merely pose a question in the above referenced thread, she provided a character assasination attempt. She got called on it.
Lil didn't merely pose a question in the above referenced thread, she provided a character assasination attempt. She got called on it.
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(Lil) Sometimes, as wise as he is capable of being, NOP's approach reminds me of the saying, "When your best tool is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail."
Is that what you're referring to as character assasination or am I in the wrong referenced thread?
I am sorry you are having some rough days after such good news with your job. Like you have mentioned I think sometimes good news can depress you because it reminds you that you do not have what you want. There is NOTHING wrong with feeling down for a bit. We all do. The key is to not let yourself get "too" down. I know it is hard for you but try to look at all the positives in your life without thinking about what else you want. It does not mean that you accept what you have. Just take some time to be grateful for what you do have.
Also I am sorry about your wife. MrsNOP had a good point about taking her headaches very seriously.
Since no one else has responded, I have to say that your wife's comment about not wanting to outlive her kids seemed fairly normal to me. I am not a mother but I know it was tough on my Grandmother to care for her son as he died. And unfortunately I have seen people lose their children and it is not always the mother that cannot recover. I know of two instances where a toddler died and the fathers were the ones that struggled the most.
As far as your wife's main goal of being a mother - while this is NOT my personality, there is a part of me that feels for women who are judged so harshly for most wanting to be a mom. Why does she NEED to have another goal other than being a good mom? What if you approached and said you admire her goal to be a good mother and you want to know if there is anything you can do to help support her with that goal - classes, etc.?
You both mention my "denial" and say I have lots of problems. What am I denying, and what are the major problems?
As far as your problems, I do not believe you have "lots" or "major" problems (I could be wrong, I just have not felt that from you). I believe you have problems that need resolved (just as we all do albeit the nature of some of yours may be more difficult) I believe they CAN be resolved by you (with help in therapy). You are a really smart guy who is open to therapy so I cannot see what can stand in your way other than you. IMHO. (Talk to your therapist and figure out how much of a role Acute Stress Disorder or PTSD could possibly have in your life and how to treat it. If you do have ASD, the website I checked http://psychologytoday.com/conditions/acutestress.html says that Cognitive Behavior Therapy is the best treatment)
As far as denial, I see a few different areas of denial (again IMHO). You are in denial by refusing to admit that you can learn to validate yourself.
As far as learning to validate myself I think that was because of how my parents raised my brothers and me. While I KNEW my parents loved me, I did not get an abundance of validation from them. We did get subdued "good jobs" but rewards were not any part of our life. I once asked my mom why I didn't get a dollar for my As like other kids. This was purposeful on my mom's part (I know because I asked when I got older) for the reasons: 1) she worried that with too much validation we might rely on them too much. 2) she worried that if she validated good things we did too much, we would think we HAD to do good things for THEM instead of developing that feeling for ourselves. She wanted us to feel loved for who we were and not for what we did. Was it a PERFECT or ONLY way to develop self validation? I do not know for sure but I appreciate the ability to self validate along with having confidence that my parents love me just as I am. I admire my mother for CONSCIOUSLY TRYING to be the best parent SHE could be.
I think there is denial by believing that everything you are dealing with is tied to your wife and that she holds the key for your happiness. The denial that you can handle this on your own is significant. It is also a denial of your strength, ability and capability. For someone to make it through a childhood like yours and to get where you are shows tremendous capability!
****You seem afraid of letting go from the feeling of wanting someone else to validate you. Your parents denied you the feelings of love and validation so you have hung on to that WANT for so long you do not seem to be able to let it go. In fact IMHO IT is your security blanket. It is a comforting feeling because it has been with you for so long. And we are asking you to give up this comfortable feeling. I think we ALL can relate to some feelings similar to this. Our dysfunctional thoughts become so ingrained it is uncomfortable to give up that "old friend."****
My W says the same things, and it is absolutely true. I have a good job, great kids, stable income, etc etc etc. But the thing I want the MOST in life is a passionate R. I realize that grasping for it won't get it. The way to get out of quicksand is to stop flailing, the best way to tread water is to float, neediness is very unattractive, etc etc etc. But without a passionate marriage, none of it seems worthwhile. That's just me.
I keep thinking about this because there is SOMETHING here. Again is it that a passionate relationship is what you MOST want in life? I really do not think this is true or else why wouldn't you have walked out on your wife, kids and job a long time ago? I do not think that you really WANT to give up those things for passionate relationship. Is it more that a passionate Relationship is what is MOST MISSING from your life? PLUS you are not happy and validated so therefore a passionate relationship WILL be what you need to make yourself happy and validated?
I know I am fixated on this but it seems to me YOU are fixated on the passionate relationship and I am afraid that it is actually getting in your way. To be clear, I do not that passion is a "bad" or unreasonable thing to want. I just sense something distracting about this feeling.
Have you read "Care of the Soul" by Thomas Moore? Or "The middle passage" by James Hollis? Either or both would be really good for you, I think. I am rereading Care of the Soul right now and am amazed by how much I read is so helpful for me. I would be curious if you found it as helpful. The midlife passage is NOT a typical MLC book. It more addresses the FACT that everyone hits midlife and the "shadows" in our life naturally need to be dealt with. Everyone has things from childhood that they deal with and eventually the usual coping mechanisms collapse.
Please keep your spirits up the best you can.
Go ahead, tell me I am wanting to fail or something just so I don't have to do the hard work.
I certainly don't think that at all. I don't think you don't want to do the hard work or even that you are afraid of the hard work. I do not think that you want to fail. I do think you are afraid of failing. NOT the same thing as what you wrote. Being afraid to fail is something with which most of us have to struggle. If I thought you weren't willing and able to do hard work, I wouldn't have written to you!
But what is happiness except the simple harmony between a man and the life he leads? ~Albert Camus
As it turns out, the nurse called back and now has my W on a combination of pain killers, which seem to be working. She is supposed to stay on them till Monday, slowly reducing dosage, and then go into the doctor. She says she is feeling better now.
As per the cake suggestion ... well. Your heart is in the right place, and I'd say for most people your suggestion would work. But if I were to come to a family easter party with a bought or mix cake, my W would be absolutely mortified. She would never allow me to do such a thing. Baking and cooking "home-made" stuff is considered a requirement for being a member of the extended family. So I would most definitely not be a hero, and she would feel even more strongly that she reneged. That being said, she has decided that she is going to do the cake, to heck with what I think. So I did the only thing I could. I volunteered to help. Maybe it will go faster and she can get to bed with it off her mind which will help her sleep. Super Placater, at your service. (instead of flying off into the sunset, I slink off with wide eyes and a hunched back).
Chrome
"Recollect me darlin, raise me to your lips, two undernourished egos, four rotating hips"
"That being said, she has decided that she is going to do the cake, to heck with what I think. So I did the only thing I could. I volunteered to help. Maybe it will go faster and she can get to bed with it off her mind which will help her sleep. Super Placater, at your service. (instead of flying off into the sunset, I slink off with wide eyes and a hunched back)."
-- No. That's being a protector, friend. That's taking care of your woman when she's fighting illness. That's being a man, not a supplicant.
I recently had a revelation as to how off course I was with my alpha-beta examinations. The world needs both and it's healthy to be both. I now look in terms of princes and kings. Perhaps will explain at some point.
Regardless, Chrome. In terms of supplicating and placating that is not an example of either. Here's how you tell:
Men become supplicators/placators primarily only when they are seeking some kind of approval from the female... sexual favors, attention, verbal or nonverbal validation. You did not do this. You offered help to be her man of steel during her time of distress... with zero expectation of "now what can you do for me?"
Way to go. Good job, protector.
-Stigmata-
The difference between a warrior and an ordinary man is the warrior views everything as a challenge; the ordinary man views everything as either a blessing or a curse.
-Yaqui shaman Don Juan-
...and that holds 2x true for nice guy wussies, DJ
No. That's being a protector, friend. That's taking care of your woman when she's fighting illness. That's being a man, not a supplicant.
Great point!
I would like to hear more about your theories. I happen to think that a lot of the Alpha men descriptions thrown around here are way to simplistic and do not allow for any variation dependent upon the marriage. There is NO universal way for a man or woman to behave that will work in every HEALTHY marriage. (for ease of reference I only refer to healthy marriages) I think there are universal feelings involved in healthy marriages.
Last night I referred Chrome to "Care of the Soul." Thomas Moore talks about people who are so quick to judge their behaviors harshly without looking at the positives that go along with the negative. he encourages you to not be so quick to want to remove certain behaviors until you recognize the pros and cons so that you remove only the negative.
Thanks again for a positive look at Chrome.
But what is happiness except the simple harmony between a man and the life he leads? ~Albert Camus
Is that what you're referring to as character assasination or am I in the wrong referenced thread?
Burg, there was more to it. My preference would be to leave it since it's in the past. However, if you want to correct, cajole, criticize, resurrect it, or discuss it, I would rather not thread jack Chrome's thread, so it would probably be more appropriate to start another thread if you should decide to do so.
I will say this straight up. I do, without apology, respond to snarky personal comments at my husband in kind, guns blazing and with larger caliber.
Super Placater, at your service. (instead of flying off into the sunset, I slink off with wide eyes and a hunched back).
Nah, that's not placating. That's helping your wife accomplish what she feels she needs to do. So, stop slinking!
NOP and I have both been guilty individually at times of biting off more schedule-wise than we can chew. It's simply good partnership to not give into to crabbing at each other about it and just do what can be done to get each other through it. I confess a certain nostalgic sadness at not having a child at home anymore to surprise with an Easter basket loaded with goodies. So, I'm envious of your time with your children today.
I've been thinking about the "goals" conversation you were trying to have the other day. That's sounds worklike/careerlike to me. I wonder if the next attempt could be framed in terms of future dreams, or things hoped for? Trips? Hopes for the children's future? If time and money were no object what are 3 things you would like to do, see, have? That sort of thing? Also, conversation wise, I have found that reading up on current light news items of interest can be great conversational starters. The weirder the better. It's impersonal, however it often leads to personal opinions and can give you a chance to do some conversational bonding. And it gets you out of the rut of talking only about work and the kids.
