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That is my situation too. Hard to know what to do. I like the idea of taking it slow without pursuit. Is there a way to suggest getting together some without it appearing to be a date?

I would test the water if I were you. The only thing is to have no expectations. That is the difficult part. If she pulls back then you do to. We need no further rejection or hurt.


I can really relate. I look at my changes and wonder if they are really changes or just rediscovering parts of me I suppressed for whatever reasons. And I still see so much left to change I wonder if I really changed after all. Just last week someone at work made a joke about me being sarcastic. Uggg....


That sums it up for me.

Don't see what's wrong with calling a date a date, to try and call it something else sounds underhanded or weak. If two independent individuals want to go out, whatever their past, they should be able to.

Had a call from xw today and she was exceptionally friendly so that was a way to test the waters some. She talked about coming out to the new place later in the summer and was not expecting to hear that. It's a fine line like you put it, between being overly interested and being disinterested. It's easy not having any expectations knowing I'll be on a plane to live across country in a couple of weeks. Just having some genuinely pleasant times and maybe more if things go that way but no expectations. Having been back in the dating pool for several months now, rejection doesn't sting much anymore.

Change: Don't see how people that go through this experience and give significant self-reflection can't change but there are those that do stay in denial or jump quickly into another relationship without really understanding what went wrong and needed changed from the last one. Good point about change or going back to the beginning, don't know as long as we are better people for it and there is always room for more improvement.

Again, think the recent dating experiences have prepared me so going for it, finding and dating other women has gotten easier so restarting over with xw sounds feasible. Going for the "just the two of us" line of thinking and attempt, no, will put all the past/present cr@p behind us and out of the picture.

Well, that's the plan today anyway. Make any sense? RJ "Strong but humble"

Picked up a laptop computer while on vacation so back on-line now.

The go-for-it plan has been working so far somewhat to my surprise. So far xw has not rejected any of my suggestions meals w/kids, movies w/kids and today drinks alone and a date set up for us alone, 5 of us that used to be a family together all day for the 4th. She's brought up and talked about visiting in NJ this summer also. Frankly I'm enjoying the alone time while the with D19,S16,S14 time seems more like the old days which wern't very exciting. Not sure how far I want to take it, thinking about asking her to go on a trip to where we met in Spain, would have been our 25th anniv this year. One strange thing is that when we talk about certain subjects, like our early days, she keeps getting teary/watery eyed, what could that mean? Not expecting much considering we will still be very geographically separated for a while. And will be checking out the ladies in NJ, matchmackers already have a couple of prospects lined up. RJ

RonJon,

Have you ever said that you've forgiven her?

OTB

Hope you are having fun on vacation.

Interesting observation. I am not at the dating stage yet so that did not occur to me. I think it is valid. You also seem to have your mind in the right place concerning expectations.

Yes, it is a fine line between being interested and too interested. Guess we need to concentrate on courtship and flirting and such. Sounds like that is what you are doing.

OtB, Yes, I have in fact told her I've forgiven her for the affair and the divorce. Came to the realization that I was pretty much a grouch/stick in the mud before and recalled that she did try to save the M on occasions. It took the actual physical separation and the filing of D papers to finally wake me up and see that I needed to make and did make some "life changes". Am a lot more fit now and basically have a much better outlook on things. Unfortunately, by that point (filing), she was so detached as past the point of return at the time.

Can see where a lonely woman in emotional pain could fall prey to a worm that had been hitting on her for a long time seeing our M on the rocks. That former "friend" I can never forgive. Anyway, to me the past is relevant but can't be changed so it's the present and future that take precedent. What she told me when we were talking about forgiveness was that "she didn't feel she had to forgive me for not being (or not becoming) the man she thought I could be." But when I asked her what that meant, as usual, she wouldn't give any details. Women seem to want mind-readers and I've yet to meet the guy who is. So I continue to work on everyrthing, not for her but because it's the right way to go. No doubt that there is still some resentment on her part under the surface which translates to entitlement but knowing that gives me an edge on working on it.

Long answer for a short question. Why did you ask?
RJ
"She may have given up on me in the past but I haven't given up on her yet"

RJ,

I asked because sometimes they need to be reminded. Sometimes, you just need to take them by the hand, look deeply into their eyes...and say you were wrong. Sure, they've done the devil's all to you but they still feel entitled. Sometimes you need to bite the bullet and just say you are sorry...again and again until they say "Ok, I believe you now.".

I'm sure you still love her, warts and all, and she's connected to you by her children but she's carrying around the guilt of her affair...it'll never go away but she'll be able to release some of the negative feelings about herself if she gets the ok from you.

You'll be leaving soon. Moving far away again. She's missed you and the kids. Show her that you still care, in a masculine way, that you have the ability to forgive..and then go about your way...men, in general, lead...women follow. That's just biology.

I hope you've had a wonderful stay and that you keep the balance that you've found.

OTB

Hullloooo RonJon! Glad to hear things are going well.

Funny you should mention women needing mind-readers, 'cause that's exactly what I thought about my H. He seems to think I can just read his mind and 'know' what he's thinking and feeling. Very frustrating! I wish I was a freaking mind-reader 'cause then I would've know what the heck was going on before it got to the point of an A. So, I don't think that's a general woman or man thing, just some people can't seem to verbalize and communicate with their significant others - I guess it's a bit of a character flaw.

One thing I have come to see in your XW is her talking and dancing around an issue. Speaks in riddles, IOW! Have to be a cryptographer to understand, and maybe that's better than having to deal with someone who won't say anything at all?

Anyway, you have a good handle on it all. You are well grounded, and positive, and ya can't go wrong with that kinda attitude. It's also nice that you can see things, in some measure, from her perspective, and be empathetic (which, of course, doesn't make what she did, right in any way).

Hope ya enjoy the rest of your holiday, and the move goes smoothly.

Jeff, Have been having fun on the vacation, more than expected. D19 and I have been hanging out, movies, dinners, putt-putt, etc. She has a boyfriend she had me meet, he's OK, but no one is good enough for my girl. She says he reminds her of me which makes for a tough argument to go against.

The dating stage takes different amounts of time to reach for each person. For me it took a couple months after D even though others start when going through the proceedings. There is usually an urge to start early, at least there was for me, but looking back, can see I wasn't ready then.

Expectations almost always end bad so why have them? It's OK to have a little hope but to be counting on something that is so unsure is asking for it.

That fine line gets even finer the farther things progress, it's like at some point I feel she is going to say no to something but she hasn't yet while at the same time she has not shown a lot of initiative. What the heck, I'm already a lot farther than I thought I'd be so will continue to press. If she says no, will back off then and re-evaluate/see if see comes to me. It's like a game but it's too important to be a game. Things were so much easier the first time around. Wish me luck with the courtship and flirting and such. RJ

Beingme,

Being a cryptographer doesn't help. Ummm....Never mind.

OTB